Leaving Woodson as our head coach is the biggest mistake!!!

[NYKfanforever]

Why we acknowledged that Woody will remain our head coach!? Alvin Gentry is much better coach in every department and was fired. We kept Woody despite playoffs embarrassment.
Rivers out coached Woody despite playing without Rondo. Indiana next year will be even better team as Chicago and clearly Miami.
Woody still thinks that we should play fucking small ball with Mello as pf and that thinking is beginning of the end of championship dreams.
Moreover, after watching other coaches in playoffs it is more obvious that our first change in this off season should start with Woody.
I am sick of complaining of his stubbornness and inability to adapt offensive and defensive schemes to different opponents.
We just can't win with his concept how to run this team. We'll make some noise in regular season, but in playoffs will be the same story.

[nazrmohamed]

So before we have this ridiculous discussion how bout you define what would've made him a good coach in your mind and the basic rules for defining his replacement.

Should I assume every coach of a team with a worse record than the Knicks are worse than Woodson?

Should I consider every coach who lost in the playoffs before we did worse than our coach?

Then lets make one thing constant, injuries cannot be part of this conversation. Because I fully plan on trolling every post that starts with ......" If blank wasn't injured" with " if half our team wasn't injured". Lets all agree. I'll STFU about the Knicks injuries, when everyone STFU about Rondo and Rose. Injuries are part of sports. Or at least that's what everyone tells the Knicks when we get injured. And just as hypothetical as I can get while explaining how Amare would've helped us, Im sure that's what everyone will do with Rosé or Rondo. It is what it is, Hypothetical. So lets throw it away.

The Knicks minus some players won 54 games and took the Pacers to six games in the conference semi finals. That's where we can begin this conversation.


Continue.

[DolanCurse2001]

Melo at PF isn't the reason we aren't winning a championship and neither is Woody. The reason we aren't winning a championship is because we don't have LeBron. You can bring back Red Holzman from the dead to coach this team and we still aren't getting past the second round.

[NYKfanforever]

So before we have this ridiculous discussion how bout you define what would've made him a good coach in your mind and the basic rules for defining his replacement.

Should I assume every coach of a team with a worse record than the Knicks are worse than Woodson?

Should I consider every coach who lost in the playoffs before we did worse than our coach?

Then lets make one thing constant, injuries cannot be part of this conversation. Because I fully plan on trolling every post that starts with ......" If blank wasn't injured" with " if half our team wasn't injured". Lets all agree. I'll STFU about the Knicks injuries, when everyone STFU about Rondo and Rose. Injuries are part of sports. Or at least that's what everyone tells the Knicks when we get injured. And just as hypothetical as I can get while explaining how Amare would've helped us, Im sure that's what everyone will do with Rosé or Rondo. It is what it is, Hypothetical. So lets throw it away.

The Knicks minus some players won 54 games and took the Pacers to six games in the conference semi finals. That's where we can begin this conversation.


Continue.

Ok I agree with you regarding injuries. Despite we won 54 games in regular season there were indicators that we struggle with our lineup because of slow starts and that we have problems with bigger teams.
Playoffs confirmed.
In series against Indiana Woody was badly out coached by Vogel.
Let's start with basic rotations which he used against Pacers.
We were outre-banded and abused in the post and he didn't want to give Camby a proper chance.
Camby wanted to play and his agent said that he was ready to play. Chandler was playing like shit, Martin wasn't successful as his was against Celtics.
Camby would have helped in series where we apparently struggled against bigger and tougher Pacers, so decision not to give him a decent chance (20 minutes) is a big mistake.
Pacers defended passing lanes for pick and roll perfectly which made Chandler who can't shot and doesn't have post game almost useless on offense. What was Woody's answer?
Paul George is more athletic and he guarded Melo pretty well. Hillbert didn't have to cover Chandler on high post so he patiently waited Melo in case if George fails to stop Melo's drive to basket.
Moreover, ball movement was disaster and Woody barely controlled it with proper timeouts. If you can't make a pick and roll play, just give ball to Mello and wait in the corner. Did you see Spurs ball movement, set up calls and defensive schematics?
How many types of zone defenses Woody used against Pacers? If you don't have dominant big as opponent does and if you are smaller and less athletic the worst mistake is to play man to man deffence.
Before season started I was hoping that we will play zone (3-2) with Chandler and Camby in the paint together for some stretches but it never materialized. However, I puzzled why he didn't use the same zone 3-2 with
Chandler and Martin or even better with Camby and Martin according to poor Chandler's play!? Pacers combined 2-1-2 and 1-2-2 zones with man to man deffence. There are many zone schemes witch would enable us to have better rebounding control and better protection of basket. Vogel was better coach and Hilbert as player was difference maker.
Woody isn't bad coach and I don't have anything against him as a person, I just think that he isn't good enough to make us elite team and a contender.
Look at his playoffs record. What did he do in Atlanta!? He had good teams with very good regular season records, but with poor playoffs results.
Atlanta fans warned us, but some of fans have been carried away with 54 wins. Who can blame them, when we stunk for more than a decade.

[KnicksRUs]

[electrifire6]

Melo at PF isn't the reason we aren't winning a championship and neither is Woody. The reason we aren't winning a championship is because we don't have LeBron. You can bring back Red Holzman from the dead to coach this team and we still aren't getting past the second round.

Exactly. I really like Amare and how hard he's been working to come back from injury; we might not be a playoff team if he hadn't agreed to join us in 2010. But we're not going further than we did last year if he's allotted 1/3rd of the salary cap. We could really use an amnesty right about now.

[nazrmohamed]

Well im gonna go back on what I said and talk about injury. But not so much to say that had we had a certain player we couldvd done what we do better. Better yet to say that the actual style of play we use is directly related to those injuries. The reality is we play small because at the end of the day we have to play small. The roster, with injuries included is in fact a small roster. So again this isn't about making excuses for a lack of help for Melo, or that we need a clear number two but didn't have it excuse. That IS indeed a valid excuse but as I said, it is what it is. Our injuries hurt us in the fact that they dictate how we actually play. I myself like traditional ball and found myself ranting about Woodson, only to realize every time that its less of a coaching issue as a personell issue. I mean, we literally had two able bigmen on our entire roster. And I know Marcus Camby says he could play but how come it came out only after the series ended.? I believe that perhaps he was cleared, but theres a difference between being cleared and having practiced with the team and being in any sort of basketball shape. He gave Amare a chance, I just think Camby is playing the typical " had I played" theme most players do when they don't play.

Now there is an area that I can't stand Woodson in spite if everything I just said. I can defend you if you get stuck with a roster, especially when in spite of it all we did achieve everything we had. But when I find out that there are multiple moves that shouldve been made and weren't because Woodson doesn't want to disrupt chemistry. Thats where Id fire a dude just for that. And I won't go in detail but you guys can check my posts all season.

We had chances even within this season, even with our old roster, even once injuries popped up to sign FAs midseason, make trades and at every turn......and yes from the same posters who only now act all surprised on this site....the sentiment was. Patience Nazr. Just wait until Rasheed comes back. Or when Camby comes back. Anytime anybody wanted to make a move around here they were labeled as panickers when in fact there was no panick at all. It was sensible planning.

So excuse me if I can't cry a river or feel betrayed like most Knick fans. We didn't faill to get out of the second round because of coaching. We failed because our coach believed he was a gm yet failed to stock his roster. And I agree our regular season doesn't matter and its about what we do in the playoffs. So next time when people during the regular season see opportunities that may only seem necessary in the playoffs they will at least be listened to.

[bobhait]

Amar'e being out, plus JR and Kidd being complete non-factors and Melo injured played no role in us getting bounced in the second round, sure...

[big_j_NY]

Why we acknowledged that Woody will remain our head coach!? Alvin Gentry is much better coach in every department and was fired. We kept Woody despite playoffs embarrassment.
Rivers out coached Woody despite playing without Rondo. Indiana next year will be even better team as Chicago and clearly Miami.
Woody still thinks that we should play fucking small ball with Mello as pf and that thinking is beginning of the end of championship dreams.
Moreover, after watching other coaches in playoffs it is more obvious that our first change in this off season should start with Woody.
I am sick of complaining of his stubbornness and inability to adapt offensive and defensive schemes to different opponents.
We just can't win with his concept how to run this team. We'll make some noise in regular season, but in playoffs will be the same story.

I stopped reading there............hells no is Gentry better than Woody.

If you gave Woody that Phoenix Suns roster from the 2010 playoffs that swept the San Antonio Spurs to reach the Western Conference Finals, I bet you Woody would have been able to do the exact same thing Gentry did against that Spurs team.

[nazrmohamed]

Amar'e being out, plus JR and Kidd being complete non-factors and Melo injured played no role in us getting bounced in the second round, sure...

Actually those are the exact things you can blame Woodson for. Guys weren't ready to play on his watch. But I'm just gonna put it like this. The Knicks started out the yr as a team projected to go no better than the sixth seed. Meaning analysts, experts, scouts, and this is with Amare assumed to be healthy mind you, projected that we would barely scrape our way into the playoffs. They told us the Nets would take our city. Then Amare reinjures himself.

The team was projected to be no better than a sixth seed at full strength, loses half of their scoring duo and then goes on to not only still make their projection but do four better. Then lose in 6 games vs a team that took Miami to seven games and had been established as a playoff team longer than we have.

I don't think Woodson got out coached as much as our team was outmatched. And again, we had opportunities to match any team in toughness but elected to avoid making moves for the sake of chemistry. You wanna fire him for that be my guest. But with what he had I feel he overachieved to be honest. The Knicks should've beaten the Celtics. We were just better. Flawed just the same but still better. Against poor teams you can rely soley on ball movement around the perimeter and Melo. But the difference between the Pacers and a team like the Celtics is vast. These guys were monstrous vs us. And not just Melo. At every position we were outmuscled. At every position they were taller, and in a few they were still faster. And I just happen to think the Knicks age and overall lack of athleticism is what did us in. Not coaching.

The Pacers were a better, deeper and more complete team. One Id much rather spend time emulating than the Pheonix Suns. Put it this way, in all the chatter about how we failed is the fact that we held them to like 38% shooting. The Pacers offense was as horrible as ours looked and nobody on thier team exactly went cold, they just all shoot lousy. The difference is on every possession we take we only have one chance at it, they sometimes had up to four. We need to get bigger, stronger, faster on the wings.

WE HAVE NO ATHLETES. Everybody wants to spread the floor and pass. They love the Dantonish mindset even when evaluating players. I like those traits as well.......when athletes can do it. Whoever the Knicks look for this offseason should have some sort of physical advantage.

Last yr was the yr of watching Melo play amongst a team of broken down players. Many of them were smart, many had heart, many were good guys. But they were all either stiff or tarnished.

[bobhait]

fuck all the projections - I said from the go that this team was supposed to take the division. all the mediots were following the predictable "expect the least of the Knicks" formula

[Freddie_Freeloader]

It may sound strange but I think Sheed retiring had the biggest negative impact on the Knicks. They were a different team when Sheed played and I think he would have been huge against Indy even if he was only playing 10-15 minutes a game.

[dayday]

I can kinda see both sides of this argument. I don't think Woody did a great job this year. Overall, I thought he was ok at best. Many times it felt like the team was winning in spite of him rather than because of him. His insistence on playing small ball seems pretty stupid to me. Way too often guys were facing much bigger players. The rebounding numbers were pretty bad! 26th in the league?!? That's sad. You can't tell me that play'n PGs at the 2, Shump & JR at the 3, Melo at the 4, and guys like Thomas and Martin off the bench at the 5 had nothing to do with that. I know, 2pgs at a time was needed to facilitate ball movement. Only problem is the ball still didn't move. They were dead last in assists per game. That's not fluidity in the offense. That's not ball movement. That's making it easier for your opponents to beat you on the glass, and at times, easier for them to score on you (especially against playoff teams). Please don't mention the game against Indiana where Woody started a bigger line up and they lost, because the 2pg small ball lineup was out on the floor before the end of the first quarter. Having said that, Woody hasn't always used his rosters this way. I'm not positive he'll do it this year. So I won't go so far as to say he's had a horrible coaching career because of that.

One of the other positions that I'm kind of neutral on is the team's record this year. I think everyone can agree that good coaches have bad records at times, and okay coaches have good records sometimes. The biggest thing is often does your coach fit with your team. Like D'antoni, fit like a glove in Phoenix, but seems like putting a square peg in a round hole in LA. In this respect I am split again. The players liking Woodson and, for the most part, buying into what he says, makes me want to say yes. His use of the players makes me think no. One thing we can stop doing however, is acting like winning 54 games is unbelievable. It's solid. It's good enough to keep your job for at least one more year. It's not record setting or world beating by any stretch. I don't care what the Knick-hating media said before the season. Face it, to say this team is less than liked is a major understatement. People hate, and hate on, the Knicks. Winning 54 games is good, but really it adds up to having the 7th best record in the league. There's a good chance that several teams with worse records will be significantly improved next year. Namely, Indiana, Brooklyn, Chicago, Golden State, Houston, The Lakers, and possibly Atlanta and Dallas depending on who they sign. Add that to Miami, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Denver, Mephis, and the Clippers already having better records, and NY could be hurting without finding as many ways to improve as possible. Don't get me wrong, I think Amar'e will be healthy, JR will continue to improve, and Shump will start budding into a star. That may not be enough.

Also, the idea that the Knicks can't win because they don't have LeBron is ridiculous to me. His team won the championship, but now they're supposed to be the best team by leaps and bounds?!? They can't be beat?!? The team the Knicks nearly swept this year? The team NY beat three times this year (by an average of 17pts no less)? The team that had to play in three elimination games in the playoffs? The team with a soft front-court and an average point guard? The team who's best big man is Bosh-Spice? The team with a second fiddle who appears to be breaking down? The team with zero picks in the draft? The team with virtually no money to add significant free agents? Again they may have been the best this season (the best team doesn't always win a series), but even if they were its clearly not by much. How'd they go form that to unbeatable because they have LeBron? Sorry, not buying it. If you really believe that only a team with LeBron can win the East or the Finals, then why not just skip watching the playoffs for the next five to ten years because I think the Knicks have a better chance of bring back Patrick Ewing, Allan Houston, and Latrell Sprewell to play than they do of ever getting LeBron. Again, even though I laugh at the idea of LeBron's team being unbeatable, I see where the frustration comes from. The Knicks will not contend for a title by adding some journeyman point guard to be the new backup. Or by drafting the the 5th or 6th best player at his position from this years class. Big moves will be necessary to win a title, and that's not likely to happen.

Anyway, back to the topic, Woody a good coach for this team or a bad one? I don't know. I'd probably say bad with the potential to be good, but not great or horrible.

[gradyandrew]

Doesn't he have the highest regular season winning percentage of any coach in franchise history?

Go back and watch game 2 vs Indiana and game 3 vs. Boston. This team is clearly good- we just need to bring it every night and be consistent. Changing the Coach does not help us to do that- especially given that all the players seem to love him.

[dayday]

Doesn't he have the highest regular season winning percentage of any coach in franchise history?

He is just barely behind Pat Riley (who is 1st), but Riley had a much bigger sample size with over three times as many games. Also, he's 7-10 in the playoffs w/5 of those wins coming in the first round.

This team is clearly good- we just need to bring it every night and be consistent. Changing the Coach does not help us to do that

I personally think that a big part of consistency in a teams performance should be dictated by the coach. That's something that he should demand of his team, something that should be required in order to start or get playing time. Something he should be helping with schematically. Again, I'm not saying he should be fired, or that he's a terrible coach. I just don't think he's great, and he probably could utilize his roster a little better than he did this past season.

[bobhait]

there are only a couple coaches in the league that are available and if they were to replace Woodson I would have understood that and considered it an upgrade. but considering the shithole Woodson lifted this team out of after D'Antoni "resigned", why would anybody be anxious to get rid of him after the man's first full season running the team? besides everything else, remember that Woodson had to adjust his game plan on the fly, when Amar'e got injured during the training camp. when that happened everybody figured we'd be lucky to win 45 games and sneak into the playoffs as a lower seed. with five of the six returning players from his previous (incomplete) season, Woody lead this team to 54 wins, second seed in the conference and the first division title in almost two decades. he warrants dismissal because one of our max players wasn't available, and two of our major rotation players were for shit in the series against the team that pushed the eventual champion to 7 games in the following round? we keep changing competent coaches every couple seasons or less we'll never go anywhere.

[spree#8]

Did we fail? I mean, yes, in the playoffs we did, but did we fail in 2013-14? Already? Isn't it a bit early to proclaim keeping Woodson IS the biggest mistake? As I said before last season, such things get decided in the playoffs, so it is still a long way to know for sure. So why come up with a panic thread now?

In the end, you might be right, because the two playoff appearances under Woodson were as bad as it gets from an offensive standpoint, once again showing that he may not put the neccessary preparation onto that end of the floor. But a guy that coaches his team to the regular season records he has gets another shot. That's how it should be. We are talking about his second full season here. In his first full year, his plan for the playoffs failed, so now you give him - the insider - the chance to correct it.

For me, the lesson from this years playoffs is, that he didn't trust players that should have been out there for offensive reasons on the defensive side. He shortened his rotation for the playoffs in a way that led to our regular season offense to implode. So what now? Fire this coach, that knows something about championship defense, and bring soemone in that plays these offensive specialists (probably leading to our defense to implode) or bring in players for this coach who bring what we need on offense but whom he also trusts on defense?

I say it is a wise decision to give this coach another shot. Let Grunwald do his job to improve the roster and then we observe how Woody is doing with those roster upgrades. If our offense still looks the same - like shit - in next years playoffs, I am the first to sign the "fire Woodson" petition. But right now it is time to try to improve the roster, then it is time for the team to try to win the Atlantic again and THEN it is money time. You fear, that Woodson and the Knicks fail in next years playoffs? That is a reasonable thought. You think that because of this fear Woodson should be fired now? That is over the top IMO.

BTW: I don't see any coaching candidate out there who is a sure shot to lead the Knicks to glory. Don't worry: those or comparable candidates will be out there whenever we need a new coach. Speaking in general: to build a winning culture - we made great strides last season in that direction - you need stability at the coaching position, so a coaching change should always be the last - not the first - resort.

[Mr. Glass]

Woodson – His job is to manage; not just game situations, but player health, mileage, personalities, development and trends. He needs to improve in many of these areas. This post-season, I listened to the other coaches as much as possible. Both Rivers and Vogel kept their guys more relaxed and aware. Both coaches stressed that the pressure was on the Knicks because they were the higher seed. True. Both coaches also made better substitutions.

When you go into a scoring slump and/or become too predictable offensively, you HAVE to try new things. I believe that Novak and Shumpert were grossly underutilized. I believe that Camby and Barron were bodies that should have been given a chance to defend Hibbert. The old-school baller in me says Q-Rich’s fouls should have been used on anybody!

[Don Che]

It may sound strange but I think Sheed retiring had the biggest negative impact on the Knicks. They were a different team when Sheed played and I think he would have been huge against Indy even if he was only playing 10-15 minutes a game.

A stretch 4 that defends...really does make a difference not even starting but just in the rotation.

Woodson isn't perfect..he isn't smart and doesnt adjust well. But he has the respect of our team, he has them play defense, he's old school and sincerely cares about winning...I can live with that.

He's a little stubborn but he makes ppl work for his trust..problem is you have to be healthy to gain it. He demands his players to be in shape and after seeing a lot of fat idiots play here..I respect that he demands those things.

I'm not a big Woodson fan..if Brian Shaw wanted a gig next year..I'd give it. But I don't think he's the main problem.

Melo,Tyson and Amar'e are bigger problems then Woodson in my opinion

[bobhait]

Glass, Amar'e fell apart before Woody even got a chance to manage him. when STAT returned he really only played about, what 15-20 minutes a game, and everybody was complaining about him not starting, until STAT went down with another injury.

and far as the postseason, it's hard to get Novak involved when he cannot help his own offense and is almost wholly reliant on others getting him wide-open. Q-Rich probably could have given us some fouls, Camby and Barron some minutes, but would it have mattered without the players we've depended on for scoring turning to mush against Indiana? I doubt they would have been enough. our problem in the second round was inability to score the basket, and none of the names you mentioned help in that regard.