Lebron James all time rank?

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All time rank for Lebon after this series win?

GOAT
1
10%
TOP 3
3
30%
TOP 5
4
40%
TOP 10
2
20%
 
Total votes : 10

Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 9:38 am

Dcap, I promise you, I promise you’re reading too much into my comment where I said it’s comical. That had absolutely nothing to do with your comment, not at all. It’s just that, at that moment, I imagined Kareem running the point guard position and pictured Magic sitting on the bench laughing and laughing and laughing.

Seriously, you don’t believe I respect your opinion that Kareem was a better overall player? Again, I had Kareem ranked higher than LeBron. So we actually were on the same page. But there’s a lot of things that transpired since then and I had to move LeBron up.

I went back and forth with myself debating whether LeBron was a better overall player than Magic before finally giving LeBron the nod. Why? Cause LeBron has done more with less. Magic, his name speaking for itself, did more with more.

But again, I respect your opinion and anyone’s opinion. Someone warned me that my words/tone might not or do not come off the way they’re intended, at times. And I apologize for it. But you’re reading way too much into my words.

Note: Kareem Abdul Jabbar had some absolutely unbelievable seasons in the 70s, from beginning to end. He did his thing at UCLA. So I know he belongs in the conversation, at least. His autobiography was one of the first few books I read in elementary.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 9:42 am

Koopa Troopa wrote:People say Jordan never lost in the finals while Bron has lost a bunch of times in the finals. OK. But Jordan lost in the first round many times while Bron was never eliminated that early. Is it better to lose in the finals or lose in the first round?


This.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 9:51 am

Irv. Everything I witnessed from Michael Jordan in those bloody playoff wars against New York and even the Bad Boy Pistons is why I’ve always ranked Michael Jordan as thee greatest player that my eyes had seen. Those 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs is legendary. MJ always showed up, always brought it like only he could, always took control of the game when it came down to it, always found a way to put the ball in the hoop. And he did it all while hanging in the air with the Basketball Gods.

That said, I can no longer say he’s the best overall player the league has known.

The better scorer? Yes.
The better overall or all-around player? No.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 1, 2018, 1:44 pm

Its probably not gonna become accepted that Bron is the best. Thing is, who really cares? Everyone has their own opinions, old heads will claim Jabbar even if a future NBA player averages 50 20 and 20 in the regular season. Same with Jordan and whomever. The era you grew up in will skew your views. I can say the same for me. I really love all the guys from the late 90s early 2000s who were my heroes growing up.

Without question Bron is easily the greatest athlete in the history of sports. His dedication to basketball combined with his absolutely insane physical structure (which he also is more dedicated to than any other human) is unmatched. Id say if Bron grew up loving something else besides ball, he'd easily be a multi time gold medalist, superbowl champ, heavyweight champion, you name it, he would do it. His peers near his same age range and experience are wearing down while he is still at the top of his game. Who drops 50 8 and 8 in their 15th NBA season in the NBA finals?

Nobody has put in more work than he has. Jordan and Kobe still are better scorers. Hell I would say young TMac was a better scorer. But Bron does absolutely everything. Hes making all the key plays. He was defending KD, he was getting steals, he was blocking shots, taking charges (sort of right?), getting his bum ass teammates involved. His turnovers usually consist of his teammates not putting in the effort to catch his passes rather than him making mistakes.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby thewatcher » June 1, 2018, 3:46 pm

Top 3 in no particular order Wilt, kareem, LeBron.

Russel and Jordan come next; they had more rings, but better teammates too. Wilt, Kareem, and LeBron dominated for a decade physically often without much help.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 4:43 pm

Watcher. I definitely understand the Kareem nod, but why Wilt? I’ve tried to understand one’s reasoning for heralding Chamberlain for the longest time.

I read this article making a case for him as the best ever, yet I still don’t see it http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217 ... ver#slide7
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 4:46 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:Who drops 50 8 and 8 in their 15th NBA season in the NBA finals?



On the home court of the defending champs, at that.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 5:04 pm

5 reasons LeBron is the greatest of all-time https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... -time/amp/
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 5:17 pm

Michael Jordan or LeBron James: Which one is the Greatest of All Time? https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 602231002/

At the end of the day, I too understand there is no right or wrong answer. It’s all a matter of preference and, of course, one’s generation or era. But writers Sam Amick and Jeff Zillgitt put together a really good read, complete with statistics.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 5:21 pm

Abdul-Jabbar is the best basketball player ever — period https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefea ... -ever/amp/
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby spree#8 » June 1, 2018, 5:39 pm

thewatcher wrote:Top 3 in no particular order Wilt, kareem, LeBron.

Russel and Jordan come next; they had more rings, but better teammates too. Wilt, Kareem, and LeBron dominated for a decade physically often without much help.


:? Can we stop that myth when it comes to Jordan? Jordan had one teammate who made the All-star team while he played with him: Pippen, who went to the All-star game with Jordan in six seasons.

LeBron on the other hand for example had Wade and Bosh with him for 4 All-star appearances each, Love and Irving for 2 appearances each and Ilgauskas and Williams. That's 14 all-star teammate appearances compared to 6 while being on the same team.

If you go further and look at all All-star appearances by his teammates (also those without him) as an indicator for overall talent level, the gap becomes even bigger. The count for Jordan's teammates is 6, with Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Cartwright and Rodman (2) being his teammates that made All-star teams while playing without Jordan. Wade (8 without LeBron) beats that alone, Bosh also has 7 without LeBron, Love and Irving each have 3 without him, veterans like Allen (10 time all-star), Shaq (15), Howard (1), Szczerbiak (1), Lewis (2), Stackhouse (2), Jamison (2), Wallace (4), Boozer (2) also made all-star appearances and played in their careers with LeBron.

That's 60 combined All-star appearances by LeBron's teammates without him and 14 with him - so 74 - to 12 (6+6).
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby thewatcher » June 1, 2018, 6:13 pm

shakespeare wrote:Watcher. I definitely understand the Kareem nod, but why Wilt? I’ve tried to understand one’s reasoning for heralding Chamberlain for the longest time.

I read this article making a case for him as the best ever, yet I still don’t see it http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1217 ... ver#slide7
Wilt dominated so much, they changed the rules because of him, he was a physical specimen like few others; a high jumper in college; but what also the strongest guy in the league. in Philly when he averaged 50 points; he was amazing. My three top guys all got ridiculous stats. I just think the ring thing has been overblown a little bit. just my opinion, I think the Jordan "goat" legend is also overplayed.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby thewatcher » June 1, 2018, 6:19 pm

Yes Spree, but The miami years were only 4; agreed, that team was stacked; and LeBron got 2/4. Th Cleveland squad pre-Miami was plain awful; and this one was pretty good with kyrie Irving. Meanwhile Jordan got Pippen for 6-7 years, nad while Rodman was only a 2-time all-star, he was really great when paired with either isiah Thomas or jordan. Jordan also had Ron Harper who was very good. But i don't think you can prove the "Goat", it's just fun to speculate.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby spree#8 » June 1, 2018, 6:31 pm

thewatcher wrote:Yes Spree, but The miami years were only 4; agreed, that team was stacked; and LeBron got 2/4. Th Cleveland squad pre-Miami was plain awful; and this one was pretty good with kyrie Irving. Meanwhile Jordan got Pippen for 6-7 years, nad while Rodman was only a 2-time all-star, he was really great when paired with either isiah Thomas or jordan. Jordan also had Ron Harper who was very good. But i don't think you can prove the "Goat", it's just fun to speculate.


Agreed that you can't prove the GOAT.

I'm just saying that it is pretty clear that Jordan had less talented rosters around him. He took less talent to a higher team level IMO, getting his team to the unbeatable level in his era. He never played on three-headed-monster teams, while LeBron played in a big three for seven of the last 8 years. LeBron had also many proven veterans joining him in Miami and in Cleveland playing smaller roles, while the rotation on the Bulls teams consisted of many pure role players. It is also not Jordan's fault that LeBron choose not to play more combined all-star seasons with Wade/Bosh for example or leave Cleveland in the first place.

So I have no problem if you want to make an argument for LeBron having an even more impressive career in your opinion than Jordan, but the teammate argument is dead wrong IMO.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 1, 2018, 6:46 pm

I mean Pippen is top 50 all time and Rodman is a hall of famer.

Subtract the entire Cavs roster and add Pippen and Rodman. Do you still think the Warriors would win this series?
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby spree#8 » June 1, 2018, 7:00 pm

Wade had a better career than Pippen including a higher individual peak and besides Wade, Bosh and Irving could be Hall-of-fame candidates when all is said and done, while other Hall-of-famers (O'Neal, Allen) joined LeBron as "ring-chasers" and Love would easily be Jordan's third (edit) best teammate despite being constantly talked down.

Jordan's teammates get talked up in these conversations, because they were successful, while LeBron's always get talked down. Over their careers it's not even close when it comes to help from a talent standpoint. LeBron definitely had more. What you could say is that in single seasons (2007 and this one) LeBron got further with less. But that's a totally different argument.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby spree#8 » June 1, 2018, 7:06 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:I mean Pippen is top 50 all time and Rodman is a hall of famer.

Subtract the entire Cavs roster and add Pippen and Rodman. Do you still think the Warriors would win this series?


Would Jordan's Bulls beat these Warriors? Maybe, maybe not (and I have Jordan still above LeBron). But an honest answer: the Warriors would surely beat LeBron, Pippen and Rodman unless LeBron stayed with one franchise for his whole career and developed together with Pippen and just added Rodman as defender/rebounder. Then they might have a chance, but we don't even know if Pippen had developed into the same player. Irving rather bolted for example than trying to be LeBron's Pippen for the foreseeable future. But a team of LeBron, Pippen and Rodman simply patched together instead of developed? I don't like their chances.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby nazrmohamed » June 1, 2018, 8:04 pm

thewatcher wrote:Top 3 in no particular order Wilt, kareem, LeBron.

Russel and Jordan come next; they had more rings, but better teammates too. Wilt, Kareem, and LeBron dominated for a decade physically often without much help.


I guess Wade and Bosh are no help with role players like Ray Allen, James Posey, Mike Miller . Yeah, no help.

I guess Kyrie and Love were no help with solid role players are no help.

C'mon, it's a horrible argument. LeBron had and still has plenty of help. I'm agree that this year stinks in terms of overall help but Cleveland is still a deep team even now.
LeBron is truly amazing. Just stop saying he didn't have help.

Jordan had Pippen and a bunch of guys who averaged like 10pts, very role specific. I love Rodman, the guy averaged 4 points. His Cs were three backups. He didn't bitch about talent he forced everyone to be the best versions of themselves. Meanwhile LeBron is bitching out Love for not going drinking after work. Perhaps he should let his coaches coach.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby shakespeare » June 1, 2018, 8:48 pm

Hilarious thread, I love it.

After LeBron left Cavs, they were lottery.
After LeBron left Miami, did they even make the playoffs? I think so, but ousted in first round.
If LeBron leaves Cavs again, they probably won’t make the playoffs.
Jordan left Chicago and the team won like 2 less games and nearly made the EC Finals. I could be wrong, but that sounds like he had a talented squad.

Has Mike Brown returned to Finals w/o LeBron? No.
Spoelstra? No.
Will Lue? I doubt it.

Before LeBron, did Kyrie or Love ever carry their respective teams to winning seasons? No. Not even one? No.
Bosh had Toronto in playoffs, I believe. I think they were swept in the first round.

Phil Jackson won more rings w/o Jordan.
Bosh and Wade were horrible in the 4-1 Finals loss to Spurs. LeBron was LeBron.

At the end of the day, defense wins championships. I noticed the LeBron critics omitted this undeniable fact. And I’m ashamed at Nazr, cause he’s better than this. Rodman is probably the best rebounder in modern day NBA history. He was one of the best defenders, ever. The most you can say about him was he averaged 4 ppg. Hilarious. Pippen, MJ and Rodman were All-NBA defenders. After Horace Grant left Chicago for Orlando, the Bulls went out and got Rodman and Chicago won 3 more rings. To me, that sounds like he brought more to the table.

Again, Jordan wasn’t facing anything like a Spurs dynasty in the Finals. He wasn’t facing anything like a Golden State dynasty. So, when claiming LeBron had more help, it doesn’t hurt to consider the Finals opponent.

Watcher, who made a good argument, also listed Kareem. Yet, the LeBron critics bypassed any criticism of Kareem’s teammates and focused squarely on LeBron.

The ONLY baller LeBron played with is Wade. Kyrie is or was on his way to becoming a baller, but he’s gotta prove it w/o LeBron. Can he even stay healthy? And I swear to God that Kevin Love shows up like 1 game in each Finals. BTW, Celtics reached the EC Finals w/o Kyrie last season and again this season. LeBron carried Cavs to Finals without Kyrie before Irving arrived and after his departure. Think about that for a second.

And Wade, as good as he was before LeBron arrived, led Miami to a losing season the season before LeBron signed.

LeBron has never had a losing season in 15 years, I don’t believe.

Any team LeBron signs with is a real threat to reach the Finals. That can’t be said about any other player in the league.

STOP. HATING.
Last edited by shakespeare on June 1, 2018, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Irv » June 1, 2018, 8:53 pm

The LeBron that we know couldn't have played in the '90s. He would be bleeding like a Crazy 88 from Kill Bill after every hand check.
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