Lebron James all time rank?

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All time rank for Lebon after this series win?

GOAT
1
10%
TOP 3
3
30%
TOP 5
4
40%
TOP 10
2
20%
 
Total votes : 10

Lebron James all time rank?

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » June 19, 2016, 11:54 pm

After winning this series against a 73 win team were do you rank Lebron among the greats?
TAKE THAT FOR DATA
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby n8 the gr8 » June 20, 2016, 8:14 am

I'm not going to voice an opinion on lebron in this context again until he retires. He has a lot left to show. 3 rings (and counting)...
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby taowave » June 20, 2016, 9:33 am

I voted top 5,but probably should have gone top 3.
There's Jordan and Magic,and Lebron certainly deserves to be in that class..
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 20, 2016, 12:08 pm

Are you all crazy? Listen to you. Top 5 of all time??? He's not even a shoo-in for top 10. I mean, top 10 is certainly debatable, but not concrete at this point. But as far as I'm concerned, there's no justifying putting him in the top 5 of all time. Here are ten that I personally put ahead of LeBron:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Tim Duncan
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 20, 2016, 8:21 pm

Hes a 4 time league MVP, 3 time finals MVP. He deserves some respect. LeBron is Magic Johnson except faster and stronger. So how is Magic better? Historians, please let me know. :?
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby taowave » June 20, 2016, 8:35 pm

I went over the list and place Magic and Jordan at the top.As great as Wilt was,he needed Sharman to talk some sense into him and convince him that averaging 50 ppg doesn't win championships. Love Kareem,Russel and,Hakeem, but Bron gets my nod.He is 6'9",280 and can play 1-5.He's a freak of nature with the mindset to match.




Nononsense wrote:Are you all crazy? Listen to you. Top 5 of all time??? He's not even a shoo-in for top 10. I mean, top 10 is certainly debatable, but not concrete at this point. But as far as I'm concerned, there's no justifying putting him in the top 5 of all time. Here are ten that I personally put ahead of LeBron:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Tim Duncan
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 20, 2016, 10:58 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:Hes a 4 time league MVP, 3 time finals MVP. He deserves some respect. LeBron is Magic Johnson except faster and stronger. So how is Magic better? Historians, please let me know. :?

So, just because I don't put him on my top 10 means I'm disrespecting him? If that's the case, whoever you leave off your top 10 is disrespected as well. Bottom line: There are going to be great players that are going to be left off. I chose LeBron. You point out that LeBron is Magic except faster and stronger. While it's true that LeBron is faster and stronger, I actually disagree with your assertion that "LeBron is Magic." As good of a passer as LeBron is, Magic was twice as good. LeBron averages 6.9 assists for his career. Magic averaged 11.2 assists for his career in significantly less time. For the sake of this entire argument, just know that every time I mention anything statistical, that LeBron's averages won't get any better. In fact his career averages will decrease whenever he exits his prime. So the career APG gap between Magic and LeBron will only widen with time. Also, Magic was more efficient with FG% and FT%.

As for LeBron being faster and stronger, well that's fine if we're talking "more physically gifted"... but we're not. We're talking greatness. There's a difference. You mentioned LeBron's hardware. Yes, that's a big factor in measuring greatness, but you also have to take the level of competition in consideration as well. Magic faced Bird's Celtics, Zeke's Pistons, MJ's Bulls, and those stacked Sixers and Rockets squads.

The litmus test: If I could start my team with a prime time Magic or a prime time LeBron, I'm taking Magic.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 20, 2016, 11:02 pm

taowave wrote:I went over the list and place Magic and Jordan at the top.As great as Wilt was,he needed Sharman to talk some sense into him and convince him that averaging 50 ppg doesn't win championships. Love Kareem,Russel and,Hakeem, but Bron gets my nod.He is 6'9",280 and can play 1-5.He's a freak of nature with the mindset to match.

You fault Wilt for needing Sharman, yet LeBron needed to team up with two franchise players and superstars smack in the middle of their primes to win his first two rings. And I am utterly shocked that you'd put LeBron ahead of Kareem.

If you're starting a team and have the chance to pick between Kareem and LeBron, you'd be crazy to go with LeBron.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 21, 2016, 1:53 pm

Wait so LeBron needed to team up with superstars, just like this season right? I think that argument is out the window now. And especially how can you say that when Magic played with how many hall of famers? How is that a fair argument? :?
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 21, 2016, 2:28 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:Wait so LeBron needed to team up with superstars, just like this season right? I think that argument is out the window now. And especially how can you say that when Magic played with how many hall of famers? How is that a fair argument? :?

Koop, I'm really using this to counter Tao saying that Wilt needed Sharman. But in all honesty, it still shows that LeBron felt he couldn't do it without those superstars. And he actually left Miami AFTER Wade started declining and Bosh has heart problems. He abandoned ship and went and teamed up with two more franchise players/all-stars yet again in Kyrie/Love... and they're both younger and healthier than Wade/Bosh at this point. To be fair, every great player needs to be surrounded with talent, but LeBron teamed up with franchise players in their prime. Jordan didn't do that. His best teammates were Pippen/Rodman. Both are some of the best at what they do, but were never franchise guys. Magic's best teammates were Kareem and Worthy. Kareem was still very effective but clearly... the 70s were Kareem's prime years. And Worthy was a great complimentary guy, but not a franchise guy. I could go on, but to sum it up: The only players on my top 10 that teamed up with another franchise player in his prime is Shaq and Kobe. The way that happened wasn't nearly like what LeBron, Wade and Bosh did though. Plus, we're only talking about two franchise players in their prime versus three franchise players in their prime with Miami's big three.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby n8 the gr8 » June 21, 2016, 2:45 pm

Non you're not making the argument that bosh is better than pippin are you? Bosh isn't even a shoe in hall of famer.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 21, 2016, 3:22 pm

Kyrie and Love are not superstars/franchise players. Love and Kyrie only knew how to lose before LeBron showed up. Kyrie is still a developing talent at 24 years old, and Love was what he was, very unimpressive overall in the season and the playoffs. :?

LeBron made everyone on the roster play above their pay grade, even JR did an excellent job defensively. Bron brought the inspiration AND the devastation if I may use a Clydeism 8-)
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 21, 2016, 3:31 pm

n8 the gr8 wrote:Non you're not making the argument that bosh is better than pippin are you? Bosh isn't even a shoe in hall of famer.

Nope, not at all. I'm making the argument that Bosh is/was a franchise player in todays league. Pippen wasn't a franchise player in the 90s... a much tougher era.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 21, 2016, 3:35 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:Kyrie and Love are not superstars/franchise players. Love and Kyrie only knew how to lose before LeBron showed up. Kyrie is still a developing talent at 24 years old, and Love was what he was, very unimpressive overall in the season and the playoffs. :?

LeBron made everyone on the roster play above their pay grade, even JR did an excellent job defensively. Bron brought the inspiration AND the devastation if I may use a Clydeism 8-)

Koop, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I prefer Magic over LeBron. And to Tao, we certainly have to agree to disagree as I'll take Kareem over LeBron every day and twice on Sundays.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 21, 2016, 3:38 pm

Out of curiosity, Koop, Tao, n8, unveil your Top 10s. 8-)
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Koopa Troopa » June 21, 2016, 5:47 pm

Im not qualified to make a top ten. The only people who can really say are those who have seen it all. All I can go by is stats and achievement when it comes to guys from back in the day. Over the last 20 years though its LeBron. I'd say Duncan is right there with him. I guess Shaq as well, truly a dominant player.

But to me it is clear as day that the league in the modern era is way more talented than the old school guys. So while I cant say I watched much Bill Russel, nobody is gonna make me believe he was better than LeBron James. And as talented as Hakeem was, he doesnt have the accolades of even a Tim Duncan. People should never forget the monster games Duncan has had in the postseason. When it comes to some of the other names like Wilt, from the clips I have seen he was a true freak of nature so I cannot really say he wouldnt thrive in todays league. :? Honestly clips of Wilt make him seem like he was from the future.

As far as Bosh goes....Bosh wasnt doing anything for the Raptors in Toronto (In a weak eastern conference). Pippen and Co took the Bulls back to playoffs without MJ in what you called a much tougher era. So whos argument are you making? :?

And hey you know what lets talk stats

LeBron got 5 defensive first teams compared to 0 for Magic. Magic for 4 assists titles, 0 for Bron. Other than that its close. Thing is LeBron has 3-5 more years left in his career. Hes gonna keep racking up the accolades. But yeah I mentioned the Magic LeBron thing cause I wanted to know what makes Magic better. All I got so far is that hes a better passer. OK. Well LeBron already has 9000 more total points than Magic, double the blocks, only less assists. But we can also say that teams in Magics era played a faster pace, games had higher scores so more assists happened no? To add a lil more you mention that Bron had to play with franchise players x y and z and downplayed Magics HOF'ers. So how come magic got 5 rings and only 3 finals MVPs? :hmm:

But even so, looking at LeBrons stats now....They are kinda ridiculous

27,7,7 for his career. 2 steals, 1 block a game. If that isnt top ten then I dont know what is. Maybe 10 first team all nbas? 5 defensive first team? What else does he have to do?
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby spree#8 » June 21, 2016, 6:55 pm

I'm also not ready to rank LeBron yet. But some numbers I researched that I found interesting in regard to the Bron has reached six finals in a row, but already lost four discussion...

Playoff wins by player (ranking since 1984, extended for Ainge and Magic):
Fisher 161 of 259 = 0.622
Duncan 157 of 251 = 0.625
Horry 155 of 244 = 0.635
Pippen 136 of 208 = 0.654
Bryant 135 of 220 = 0.614
James 131 of 199 = 0.658
Parker 131 of 213 = 0.615
O'Neal 129 of 216 = 0.597
Ginobili 126 of 197 = 0.640
Scott 120 of 183 = 0.656
Jordan 119 of 179 = 0.665
Rodman 116 of 169 = 0.686
Grant 111 of 170 = 0.620
Ainge 107+8 of 176+14 = 0.605
Wade 102 of 166 = 0.614
Allen 100 of 171 = 0.585
Malone 98 of 193 = 0.508
Wallace 98 of 177 = 0.554
Worthy 96 of 143 = 0.671
Johnson 95+33 of 142+48 = 0.674

Magic reached 9 finals in 12 years and won 5 - something LeBron can reach if he wins the next two titles (he is right now at 7 appearances with 3 wins in 10 years) - and also has the highest winning percentage among the leading guys in the group of players with the most playoff wins since 1984. The younger guys percentage might be a little biased up because of the extension of early rounds from best-of-three over best-of-five to best-of-seven. Still the already pretty high win percentage of LeBron should put some finals losses into perspective. Just something that peaked my interest... a little food for thought...

Magic dominated a decade but could have added more if not for his illness, Michael dominated a decade even with a time-out but could have added more to his legacy if he hadn't retired two times early and LeBron is on his way to dominate a decade while it doesn't look like he will take an early leave. So he can still get to the most playoff wins by a player. Let's just wait and see what he can still add in the next five to seven years and then discuss if that's more impressive than maybe Magic's run.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby taowave » June 21, 2016, 8:21 pm

Non,I am going to have to think about it and cheat(look at the numbers:)

But,from memory Ild go with

Jordan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Bron
Oscar
Kareem
Shaq

If it comes down to a draw,I most likely favor the "one man wrecking crew",i.e guys like Bron,Magic,Bird and,Jordan who don't need to get fed the ball and are the guys you want to have the,ball with 10 seconds left on the game.

The above list is my quick eight.I think they are definites,but I will have to look at a list if I made a,glaring ommision and to pick the last 2.I think I will have to add Kobe,despite my dislike.


Nononsense wrote:Out of curiosity, Koop, Tao, n8, unveil your Top 10s. 8-)
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 22, 2016, 10:53 am

n8 the gr8 wrote:Non you're not making the argument that bosh is better than pippin are you? Bosh isn't even a shoe in hall of famer.
Nononsense wrote:Nope, not at all. I'm making the argument that Bosh is/was a franchise player in todays league. Pippen wasn't a franchise player in the 90s... a much tougher era.
Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Also, Pippen was a second option while Bosh was a third option. Big difference here.
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Re: Lebron James all time rank?

Postby Nononsense » June 22, 2016, 10:58 am

spree#8 wrote:Playoff wins by player (ranking since 1984, extended for Ainge and Magic):
Fisher 161 of 259 = 0.622
Duncan 157 of 251 = 0.625
Horry 155 of 244 = 0.635
Pippen 136 of 208 = 0.654
Bryant 135 of 220 = 0.614
James 131 of 199 = 0.658
Parker 131 of 213 = 0.615
O'Neal 129 of 216 = 0.597
Ginobili 126 of 197 = 0.640
Scott 120 of 183 = 0.656
Jordan 119 of 179 = 0.665
Rodman 116 of 169 = 0.686
Grant 111 of 170 = 0.620
Ainge 107+8 of 176+14 = 0.605
Wade 102 of 166 = 0.614
Allen 100 of 171 = 0.585
Malone 98 of 193 = 0.508
Wallace 98 of 177 = 0.554
Worthy 96 of 143 = 0.671

Again, you have to consider the era and level of competition. LeBron faced good competition, but the 80s and 90s were the toughest with MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Zeke, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson... and the list just goes on and on. Because of this, while their percentages are close, Jordan's 0.665 playoff winning percentage is far more impressive than LeBron's 0.658 playoff winning percentage.
Last edited by Nononsense on June 22, 2016, 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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