Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

[thewatcher]

Yeah Don, I'm going on record that Irving doesn't do Jack for us. We have mighty scorers now, only a defensive stud makes a difference.

[Don Che]

for the sake of this thread ill raise the question........do you guys think KP/Butler/Knox/Frank/Mitch are a top 6 team in the east..if the answer is yes.....then get Kyrie because he'd bump you some spots.

if not...let him and his 50 play games go somewhere else....he can easily be a max guy that turns into Melo REAL quick.

[big_j_NY]

for the sake of this thread ill raise the question........do you guys think KP/Butler/Knox/Frank/Mitch are a top 6 team in the east..if the answer is yes.....then get Kyrie because he'd bump you some spots.

if not...let him and his 50 play games go somewhere else....he can easily be a max guy that turns into Melo REAL quick.

Both Kyrie and Butler are on equal-tier of talent if we're going by your definition..........neither guy should be warranting "trading assets" away to acquire either, neither is warranting "trading assets" away to acquire both.

If Kyrie or Butler want to come here, they come here because they like THE CURRENT CORE TALENT on the Knicks.............not b/c the Knicks broke up some of their core to acquire either Butler or Kyrie or another "over 26+ yr old FORMER All-Star" that can become a Melo/Amare situation real quick.

Like DC said, we do need to stay the course............if any "star" players want to join the Knicks, it'll be via free agency where we keep all our core assets AND lose nothing significant. I get the argument over THJ being overrated and Frank being overrated for some people, but that changes nothing........especially since KP won't be 100% for about 95% of next season.

It isn't worth getting a fucking 8th seed in 2019 with one of these "over 28+ yr old former All-Stars" to pair with a newly recovering KP in the following season, when we could get one of these "over 28+ former All-Stars" along with a 2019 lottery pick, newly recovered KP, and the rest of our young core (whether Tim and/or Frank is still here OR not).

For people arguing Kyrie isn't a great playmaker, then what makes Butler any fucking different? Just 'cuz he can play defense? Are we going with that same damn argument again.......in a league where you need playmakers AND 2-way defenders to succeed, PLAYMAKERS that the Knicks currently lack (Frank hasn't shown anyone otherwise YET)?

[Don Che]

I prefer wings that defend diff positions over PG's that score. Kyrie can pass..but Butler impacts every part of the game...and isnt a bad passer just not a great one.

think he averaged 5 assists...thats fine by me.


either way we all agree that we stay the course. Its what happens in 2019 that we all disagree.

[cragganmor]

Butler does a lot defensively, very versatile and can help his team in so many ways. Kyrie is more specialized, he's a buckets guy, not a stopper. Also has a injury history...

[Red]

Yeah Don, I'm going on record that Irving doesn't do Jack for us. We have mighty scorers now, only a defensive stud makes a difference.

This point of view neglects to consider the importance and demand we have for leadership. How can we talk about building but never acknowledge the necessity of quality leadership on the floor.

Who exactly is our leader and why is he better than Kyrie?

[big_j_NY]

Butler does a lot defensively, very versatile and can help his team in so many ways. Kyrie is more specialized, he's a buckets guy, not a stopper. Also has a injury history...

Despite "scoring fame," Kyrie can move the ball a lot more efficiently on offense than Butler can. Sure Kyrie is score-first in terms of running the offense, but when he is in a more "structured offense" like the one in Boston.........Kyrie has the basketball IQ to identify when to give up the rock in terms of how the defense reacts to the offensive system being executed.

People keep forgetting that elephant in the room for the Knicks roster, we STILL have NO playmakers. I get people have all this god damn faith in Frank, but if Kyrie starts knocking on our door in the summer of 2019 AND Frank is still "work-in-progress" for his sophomore year in terms of being a guy that can make plays on offense..........are you really turning that down?

Butler can defend extremely well, HOWEVER, we will be stuck with the same problem that we had with Timmy Jr. in terms of NOBODY will keep the ball moving effectively.......and we'll be in a situation where we will go "ISO-Butler" and most likely fail b/c Butler's average ballhandling will not be able to execute in those clutch situations where a "great drive-and-pass" guard/wing would succeed.

either way we all agree that we stay the course. Its what happens in 2019 that we all disagree.

If we stay the course, the free agent market will dictate what we do first.

If Kyrie knocks on our door next summer with "zero demands" to sign with the Knicks, done deal. If Kyrie knocks on our door next summer AND insists we create cap room for Jimmy Butler also BEFORE he signs with us, we'll re-evaluate then which members of our core remains (I get your distate for THJ Don, but we need to play this right).

Good news is that there hasn't been any "Butler pushing for a trade to NY" tweets/reports EXCEPT for that one tweet that jump-started this thread, which means Mills/Perry has maintained the course for this season.........so we can all breathe for now.

[thewatcher]

Red, I'm assuming Butler or even better possibly but unlikely Kawai?Leadership is nice and all, we still have Lance, Lee, and Enis for that, but strickly aside from leadership, Scoring from the PG position isn't what we need more of. Defense is. KP and Knox will light it up and need the ball , not to mention Kanter, Burke and THJ. and mario.

BigJ: Knox, Burke, THJ, Frank are all play makers. The play-making EXCLUSIVELY from the PG position is obsolete; we have playmaking from every position.

bUTLER >>kYRIE FOR THIS squad!

[big_j_NY]

Red, I'm assuming Butler or even better possibly but unlikely Kawai?Leadership is nice and all, we still have Lance, Lee, and Enis for that, but strickly aside from leadership, Scoring from the PG position isn't what we need more of. Defense is. KP and Knox will light it up and need the ball , not to mention Kanter, Burke and THJ. and mario.

BigJ: Knox, Burke, THJ, Frank are all play makers. The play-making EXCLUSIVELY from the PG position is obsolete; we have playmaking from every position.

Frank is debatable, I have faith in Burke, but not sure if he's worth bigger money long-term.

Knox isn't a playmaker, he's a finisher with better ball-handling.........c'mon Watch, take the "homer glasses" off man. I love Knox and I'm sure he'll improve his ball-handling and passing overtime, but he's not a playmaker and he never will be. The best we'll hope out of Knox is that he'll be a more efficient Rudy Gay

Timmy Jr. is too far into his career to become a playmaker and even Don will tell you that.

I'm all for multiple playmakers, BUT I'll pick an elite playmaker over an "ok" playmaker with elite defensive abilities anytime IN A REBUILD

[thewatcher]

Yes J, I'm extending playmaking too creating plays for themselves in the case of Knox, THJ and KP for that matter. Still they arent catch and shoot guys where you need a CPS or Nash. They create. Just like the warriors, Durant is a playmaker so is Curry, but mostly for themselves. Thats the modern style. But no question Tim and Knox must start passing the ball.

[big_j_NY]

Yes J, I'm extending playmaking too creating plays for themselves in the case of Knox, THJ and KP for that matter. Still they arent catch and shoot guys where you need a CPS or Nash. They create. Just like the warriors, Durant is a playmaker so is Curry, but mostly for themselves. Thats the modern style. But no question Tim and Knox must start passing the ball.

So you thought Carmelo was a playmaker too then?

[thewatcher]

No, Melo turned into a black hole, so he's an exception. LOL We can just agree to disagree on Butler and Kyrie. Hopefully Knox is a Durant or even Pierce ans isn't a Melo.

[maxinquaye11]

Why CONSIDER trading for Butler

1. Because we can afford to let go of lee, mudiay, thj or frank. We got lucky withTrey Burke who should be our future pg. Noah should interest Thib
2. New York isn't a place non new-york-raised free agent stars instantly want to go to, only the desperate ones like injured Amare.
3. We need one year with Jimmy to convince him that new york and its media isnt really all that bad. Right? From there he can go convince another agent who has a ton of worries about New York to come aboard.
4. We need a defensive star and leader ( KP isn't that) that is all about playing defense in order to help coach fiz set the others on that side of the ball. Coach cant do it alone. Jimmy would be a good mentor to Knox and everyone.
5. We can use this season to win establishing team defense. Defense does not just happen one season. It takes more to really get everyone to buy in to that culture and embrace it. We add KP for rim protection and offensive firepower next season.
6. Paul George to OKC just happened.

Listing all these just to get this good thread going.

[StevoStarks]

Too me it’s simple - if we can’t close the perfect trade for one of these guys, and I’m VERY limited on who I’m trading, then I’m waiting until the summer. THJ is the only primary guy I’m open to moving because of that contract and I think his skill set is the most replaceable.

So ride the season out and don’t panic and send away potential talent. That’s really what this all boils down to - who each of us consider long term pieces.

[Don Che]

timmy along with any vets and a young guy not in the rotation(minus mitch)

I'm willing to trade but it has to make sense.

mainly I'm good just staying pat

[nazrmohamed]

That's a good point Don. But that why I say wait. I wanna hitch my wagon to Frank and young guys and record aside, you're gonna know by the end of the year if they're enough long-term or I if you need more. So if we're still enamoured with Frank and crew by seasons end you do nothing, draft your lottery pick and keep developing. If you don't see it then be my guest. I'm just saying if it's the latter then a great pg typically moves the needle more than a defensive wing, assuming that's the inky thing you do.

However Frank/Butler/Knox/KP/Robinson? That's some defense right there. I might be arguing with myself here. Hmmm.

[Don Che]

I want to be an organization that invests in our young talent appropriately.

think of it this way...Mario is the same age now that Jimmy was drafted in. and looking at tools

they are both 6'8 they are both athletic I'd argue Mario has more talent as a shooter. Jimmy developed his handle in his 3 or 4th year and became an all star.

we might already have our "Jimmy Butler" in Mario. we just gotta give him reps and minutes. and Mario is 22 and if he balls out this year we'd be spending less to keep him than trying to sign Jimmy who gonna be 30 at that time.

again all of this is slim but it's possible based on tools and overall talent . per 36 Mario is 16/6/2 assists/2 steals ....similar but slightly better than Jimmy's numbers at that age per 36.

we have to know what we have before we know what we add.

[Don Che]

if Mario shows he can guard the 2.. I really think him and Tim can battle heavy for minutes there once KP and Mitch are ready to takeover the frontline.

there should be a thread on the Knox/KP/Mitch frontline and what it would take for it to work

[nazrmohamed]

if Mario shows he can guard the 2.. I really think him and Tim can battle heavy for minutes there once KP and Mitch are ready to takeover the frontline.

there should be a thread on the Knox/KP/Mitch frontline and what it would take for it to work

I'm not sure he can do that but then again Idk if he can guard any position and that's why I don't see him as a starter. I do think we could get him to THJ levels and if you can do that and then see him resign to a sub 10mil contract then you can feel like ok, that's how you build good teams. Shoot, if THJ made 10 we'd love his contract.

[cragganmor]

No need to rush into a decision. The plan is the acquire and develop talent, let Fiz do his job. We got 3 rooks, 4 sophs, plus reclaimations like Mario and Mudiay; we need to figure out how to get the most from them.

Next summer is the right time to decide on filling needs.