3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (L 98-103)

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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 14, 2019, 9:35 am

Nazr. I’m still waiting for you to reply to the New York vs Atlanta thread where, in the thread, you credited Trey Burke with being the reason we won the game.

Yet, less than a week later, during a debate about Ntilikina, you credited Frank’s defense for being the reason New York won the game. QUESTION: So which is it?

BTW, that’s an example of insulting someone’s intelligence.

Ntilikina shoots 35% from the field and 30% from the arc for his career. He averages 3 assists and 1.6 turnovers. If you think this is better than what Mudiay offers as a backup point guard, you are out of your mind.

Frank is garbage. And the imaginary timeline you’ve created can’t make Frank any better. Can DSJ make Frank better on offense? Did Frank make Enes Kanter better on defense? I thought so.

And did you not read Irv’s post where he advised that Ntilikina’s defense against bench players isn’t Bruce Bowen-like offense worthy? Frank has never made an All-Defensive team. He’s never received a single solitary vote yet you claim his defense is “elite.”

BTW, that’s another example of insulting someone’s intelligence.

At the same time, Bowen averaged 39% for his career from the long ball. So I can understand his value to a team—he played “elite” defense and drained the long ball at an efficient rate.

And Porzingis and Russell were drafted higher than Mudiay. So I’m not sure if you imagined you made a point? Lastly, while you and NK are going to war for Ntilikina, the Knicks FO are planning to explore trades.

Again, pure comedy.
Last edited by shakespeare on March 14, 2019, 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby NewlyKnicked » March 14, 2019, 9:55 am

I don't get your first argument. Why can't a point guard make his teammates better from a defensive standpoint. Is this claim specific to the PG position? As for example, Conley comes to mind.

You have a way of making up a question that only remotely relates to the matter at hand and then push for an answer. Have I questioned Mudiay's assists tally? If anything I told you a good PG isn't only a high apg. You seem to be the one reducing the success of a PG to his assist total.
I'll play your game tho since it seems important to you. You want a high apg PG on a tanking team, correct?
- This season's Hawks have Young but maybe there aren't bad enough to your taste.
- TJ McConnell was at 6.6 apg on the 2016-17 76ers
- Bledsoe was at 6.3 the same season on the Suns...
I could look further in the past, but this feels too easy, I may have misunderstood the assignment.

1) I don't see where you read I considered our team for anything else than bottom dwellers. I can read our W-L record as good as you. I have higher hopes than you in what some of our young players can become, but there's no question about how bad we are atm. What I said tho is I don't think we should use money on Mudiay. He has improved and will look to cash in. Good luck to him with that.

2) Trier is actually pretty good at selecting his shots both in iso and as a catch and shoot.

3) I knew this one would make you jump. I think Frank fits much better into my description of how a PG can make his teammates better than Mudiay. His offense stinks, but, as I said before, I have more confidence in Frank getting his shot to fall than in Mudiay defending any. Frank has other ways to contribute to the team. However, I easily recognize I'm biased when it comes to Franky. He's been mostly very disappointing, but he can be much more valuable than Mudiay currently is.

4) Yes, Trier isn't a PG atm. However I want to see him have a try at it again. I prefer to test him and see if there's something there or not than seeing Emmanuel forget he has teammates.

5) We are in a good position for FA, but maybe you're right and nobody comes. If so, so be it, but it doesn't change anything regarding my stand on what to do with Mudiay.

6) The role can be filled with Trier.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 14, 2019, 10:20 am

NK. A point guard can create easier scoring opportunities for his teammates but there’s nothing that can be done to make his teammates play better defense. I wasn’t arguing the fact.

You have a way of making up a question that only remotely relates to the matter at hand and then push for an answer.


Okay, you got me.

But seriously, it’s not logical for anyone to expect one of the worst teams ever to sport a point guard averaging high assists per game. My reply was a response to another poster mentioning how DSJ has several games with high assists and Mudiay none, although that’s not true. BTW, neither DSJ nor Mudiay average high assists for their career, which isn’t a bad thing, cause if that’s not your game then it’s not your game.

Now, I actually agree with you on NOT re-signing Mudiay if the standpoint is a money issue. BUT if you were suggesting that he shouldn’t be resigned because he hasn’t proven himself, then I’ll never agree. The only reason I began Mudiay vs Frank is because the picture being painted is Mudiay is garbage and Frank isn’t garbage when, in reality, both are nothing more than role players. Difference being: I’d rather the role player that can our score his opponent more times than not. We just have different philosophies, that’s all.

And that’s why I like Trier’s game—he can hoop but he isn’t a point guard. As someone once stated, “There’s a reason Trier calls himself “ISO Zo.” At the same time, why do Knick fans always try to make a player play a position that isn’t one’s natural position? If we have DSJ and Frank Ntilikina as point guards, then why mention Trier in the same breath?

And if you’ve noticed: when you speak of Mudiay it’s in a present sense. Yet, while speaking of Ntilikina, it’s in a future sense.

“Timeline,” “can be,” “of the future,” blah blah blah.

That line of thinking is the reason why Knick fans didn’t want to trade THJ or Iman Shumpert for Kyle Lowry.

THJ was who he was.
Iman Shumpert was who he was.
Frank Ntilikina is who he is.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby nazrmohamed » March 14, 2019, 10:38 am

You asked me a question and I intend to answer it. But first a question. Can two facts be true at the same time?

The Atlanta Hawks are led by a scoring PG. His name is Trey Young. He sets up his team by scoring and then facilitating once you commit to guarding him. That night we played 2 PGs Frank and Burke. One Trey had a very good scoring night and played a solid game.

The other didnt and it had a ripple effect of restricting his teams system, forcing them to play isolation basketball from the wings. Frank Ntilikina guarded that player named Trey.

Frank was instrumental in helping us win that game from a defensive standpoint
Trey Burke was our highest scorer.....but not to simplify it, he had an overall good game.

At least I'm fair. Problem with you is if you went back to that game, even if you rewatched it and saw what I saw. Youd come right back here and say IDGAF, he score 6 points.
Grady- Mario is the KD of tanking. Fiz got worried that playing Jordan would help the Knicks win, so he has to make sure Mario gets plenty of minutes.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 14, 2019, 10:44 am

I quoted your exact words.


Yet, in the game thread, you credited Trey Burke for “giving Trae Young fits offensively.”


Also, THJ dropped 31, 5 and 6 on the Hawks but those were probably empty stats.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 14, 2019, 10:47 am

BTW, Ntilikina had 5 points, 1 assist and 5 rebounds in 34 minutes of play.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 14, 2019, 10:50 am

Nazr. If presenting an argument inside of a courtroom, this would be the moment I rested my case.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby NewlyKnicked » March 14, 2019, 11:03 am

Shakes, we seem to have reach an agreement. The standpoint IS mainly a money issue for Mudiay. I think he has value in his role, and I was honestly glad to see him fare better this season. However with DSJ and Trier, I don't think we should invest in him.

It's interesting you picked up on my use of tenses with Mudiay vs Frank. I didn't realize I was doing it, but it reflects my line of thinking. I don't see Mudiay being more than what he is now, after 4 years in the league, on this shitty team for a coach that loves his style and gives him the green light. I may be wrong of course but I feel the present is his peak. As for Frank, I think we haven't seen what he can do, it's his very floor, and he's mostly potential still.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby nazrmohamed » March 14, 2019, 5:38 pm

shakespeare wrote:BTW, Ntilikina had 5 points, 1 assist and 5 rebounds in 34 minutes of play.


For some reason I can't find it. Seriously, I know it happened and I do remember Burke going off that game. The only games I see vs the Hawks are one where he scored 14, another where he scored only 3 and the one we won Trey didnt play.

I know it happened though, send me the link. In any case many people would say that Hardaway was an empty stat player, to be fair I disagree. He averaged 17pts and won us some games. How many points does our current best scorer average and how many wins have they created. We've won games that Frank had started (at PG) so what case have you rested?

Why dont you spend time sharing defensive statistics on offensive players? Cuz when you factor in his defensive assignments that stat line wasnt so bad. Playing on ball defense against a projected elite PG and off ball offense while Burke and Hardaway were hot? On probably a few shots. Grabs 5 boards. Frank provides more value. Frank would be an even better defender than he was last year if there wasnt that voice saying "nobody cares just score".

I said fair to Irvs comment because he somewhat hinted at something you dont. He said the Knicks better get good real fast or basically Frank will be traded...something like that. I think its cause he can identify that Frank has more value to a team with established players and a system more than a clusterfuck tanking team where it's all about showing out. That's not garbage, that's a role player.
Grady- Mario is the KD of tanking. Fiz got worried that playing Jordan would help the Knicks win, so he has to make sure Mario gets plenty of minutes.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby nazrmohamed » March 14, 2019, 6:30 pm

Shakes. Just find me some defensive players and I'll probably stfu. Rookie contract good defenders. There's a possibility it still might not work but it's a start.

I was open to drafting Shas Gilgeous Alexander for goodness sakes. But you're simply not gonna change my opinion with 12pt scorers who can't defend. 20pt scorers who can't defend, sure. Not ok scorers who can't defend.
Grady- Mario is the KD of tanking. Fiz got worried that playing Jordan would help the Knicks win, so he has to make sure Mario gets plenty of minutes.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby Don Che » March 14, 2019, 7:49 pm

agreed...defense and moving the ball comes first
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby taowave » March 14, 2019, 8:36 pm

And you have to be a competent deep ball shooter...

On a good squad,with a guy like Durant,tou are going to get open looks




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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby Don Che » March 14, 2019, 9:29 pm

very true...building a team around KD would be a great process since he just does so much on the floor.

just wonder how sees his game evolving
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 15, 2019, 2:55 am

Have I entered the Twilight Zone and don’t know it?
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby taowave » March 15, 2019, 9:10 am

Its a combination of things....

From what i can tell having debated with you,you prefer guys like Hardaway Jr and Mudiay over a Dinwiddie and Joe Harris. Its not wrong or right,its simply your preference..

I dont like Mudiay other than a spark off the bench. I dont believe he makes players better,hence the team..

In a dream world,Frank is a Dinwiddie type player..Plays D,good court vision...Problem is,he cant shoot,questionable handle,average athleticism and worst of all,very little confidence...

So when people roll with Frank,it is a bit of a dream....

On a really good squad,Mudiay is not a fit..Dennis could be,but he has to develop a deep ball and bring it every night.IMHO,hes a moody fucker,and he tends to dissapear if hes not scoring...



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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby Don Che » March 15, 2019, 10:05 am

Very true Tao


if you look at Mudiay and Knox right now....and look at elite teams and try to plug them into their rotations....it wont work out


even tho Frank is worse than mudiay and knox.....i can plug Frank into a playoff rotation once a jumper is there. I can't say that about Mud and Knox

Joe Harris will always ahve a job in a rotation...Din does as well
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 15, 2019, 11:56 am

Tao. No, I was referring to Nazr’s reply. He continues to harp on Ntilikina’s defense against Trae Young and Atlanta when I quoted his exact words from the game thread where he credited Burke’s defense against Young. Then, he returns to say he can’t find the link to the game thread.

1) He claimed Ntilikina’s defense being the difference-maker.
2) Although in the game thread, he credited Burke’s defense
3) I actually quoted his words and stats from the game
4) Yet, for some strange reason, he still harps on Ntilikina’s game against Hawks
5) THJ dropped 31, 5 and 6 against Hawks

Non-Twilight Zone question: Who was the most valuable player against Hawks: THJ, Burke or Ntilikina?
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 15, 2019, 12:06 pm

Don Che wrote:I can plug Frank into a playoff rotation once a jumper is there.


See, that’s what I’m saying. When one speaks of Ntilikina, it’s always in a future tense and hardly ever from a present tense.

If you speak from a present tense, it won’t factor.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby shakespeare » March 15, 2019, 12:12 pm

Tao. You did the same.

1) Mudiay doesn’t make players better, BUT NEITHER DOES FRANK. Then you add, hence the team. We don’t have a single NBA caliber player on our roster. What am I missing here?
2) When you mentioned Frank, you add “dream world.” AGREED. You’re dreaming.
3) When you mentioned DSJ, you say he needs a long ball and bring it every game, BUT SO DOES FRANK. Frank needs offense, PERIOD.

4) Then, both you and Don Che speak of Frank having a role on an elite team, which disregards the reality that he doesn’t have a role on a lottery team. How can a lottery pick not have a role on a lottery team yet has a role on a perennial contender? Are you saying Ntilikina and Harden works better than Harden and Paul? Are you saying Curry and Ntilikina works better than Curry and Thompson? Are you saying Kyrie and Frank works better than Kyrie and Jaylen Brown?

A role player is a role player, no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
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Re: 3/12/19: New York Knicks @ Indiana Pacers (7:00 pm)

Postby taowave » March 15, 2019, 12:29 pm

When I watch those 3,I see vastly different skill sets..or lack of one/several...

I brought up Frank and dreamworld because he has done nothing to substantiate my opinion...

What I would like to see is Frank getting 20+ minutes at the PG.....

I like his court vision,I like his length and I like his D.....

You know I hated Phil as a GM..But never as a coach....I see what Phil saw in him as a PG in a system/structure like the Triangle..But I also think Phil underestimated how bad the rest of Franks game was/is.

I want him to sink or swim,but that means he has to get in the water.....Throw him in,there is nothing to lose...

Then we can talk







shakespeare wrote:Tao. You did the same.

1) Mudiay doesn’t make players better, BUT NEITHER DOES FRANK. Then you add, hence the team. We don’t have a single NBA caliber player on our roster. What am I missing here?
2) When you mentioned Frank, you add “dream world.” AGREED.
3) When you mentioned DSJ, you say he needs a long ball and bring it every game, BUT SO DOES FRANK. Frank needs offense, PERIOD.




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Non-Twilight Zone question: Who was the most valuable player against Hawks: THJ, Burke or Ntilikina?
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