2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 9, 2018, 11:34 am

Heres my issue with this regime so far. I still like the direction but we are still holding a cloak of a rebuild over the real intent to rush things.

Mills goes on SAS and says we are players in FA next year to get max guys.
perry says the same
Fiz says the same

we are releasing Noah for room to sign a max guy

all signs are looking to 1 max guy.

Here is my problem:
We are not 1 max player away from being great. point blank simple. No one player in the 2019 FA class makes us contenders.

We are rushing the rebuild...we should be focusing on hitting doubles and singles and focusing on the draft.

I want us to focus on FA AFTER we are a playoff team.

the only thing that can make me wrong is......we trade for a max guy with current salary and sign another one in the offseason but to trade for a max guy. Your talking about mortgaging your future for the possibility of the present. And depending on who it is...we bank our window of opportunity in those 2 guys. For ex: Jimmy and Kyrie.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby H20Knick » August 9, 2018, 12:56 pm

Don Che wrote:Heres my issue with this regime so far. I still like the direction but we are still holding a cloak of a rebuild over the real intent to rush things.

Mills goes on SAS and says we are players in FA next year to get max guys.
perry says the same
Fiz says the same

we are releasing Noah for room to sign a max guy

all signs are looking to 1 max guy.

Here is my problem:
We are not 1 max player away from being great. point blank simple. No one player in the 2019 FA class makes us contenders.

We are rushing the rebuild...we should be focusing on hitting doubles and singles and focusing on the draft.

I want us to focus on FA AFTER we are a playoff team.

the only thing that can make me wrong is......we trade for a max guy with current salary and sign another one in the offseason but to trade for a max guy. Your talking about mortgaging your future for the possibility of the present. And depending on who it is...we bank our window of opportunity in those 2 guys. For ex: Jimmy and Kyrie.


the knicks COULD create space for 2 max guys if they had to... if KP doesn't take every cent he can get.

The only 2 guy scenario i see next summer is Kyrie+Jimmy. If you're doing that though, you don't need to have Frank AND THJ. The Knicks might have to give up a future 1st rounder to move Courtney Lee or THJ out of town, but we're not talking a lottery pick here, and 1 pick won't be the end of the world. I'm really not that high on Jimmy Butler to be honest. He didn't like playing 2nd fiddle to Rose and it basically destroyed that team. Now he has a problem playing with Towns. I don't know how much he's going to like being 3rd banana to Kyrie and KP. He's also going to be 29 when the 2019 season starts.

I think the Knicks have this one right outside of the fact that you don't need to waive Noah until you actually need the money. None of us were there when the Hornacek/Noah altercation(s) happened, so I'm not going to speak about whether Noah is a good mentor for Mitch or not. But the PED thing and the santa monica thing are enough for me to just trust Mills/Perry's judgement about whether or not he should be around this team.

Other than that though, from a rebuild perspective, I think you start going after FAs when you stop getting lottery picks. With KP back, 2nd year Knox, 3rd year Frank, "veteran" THJ, the Knicks should be a playoff team unless some analytics are true and Enes Kanter really is our best player. That means we're not going to draft a game changer after this summer. So why not go after bigtime FAs and let them mold the development of Knox/Mitch/Frank/2019 pick to better support the FA/KP duo?

What this really means is that this season is our last chance to tank. This season could be the difference between being a contender or being the 2010s hawks and being a 4-8 seed every year but never getting close to a title or getting close to drafting a guy who turns you into one.

In response to your post, I'm great with 1 max guy. In H20Knick's fantasy, the Knicks draft Barrett or Reddish to pair with Knox/KP/Mitch with THJ/Frank off the bench and Kyrie Irving running the show. It'd cripple the celtics and make it Knicks vs 76ers for a trip to the NBA finals for the forseeable future.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 9, 2018, 3:56 pm

question is...would Kyrie come here if we sucked bad enough to get Cam Reddish/RJ. I'm not sure.

Kyrie/RJ/Knox/KP/Mitch would be a squad but even if Kyrie doesnt sign here I'd feel good about it.

1 max guy only works if we draft another max guy
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby rebound » August 9, 2018, 4:22 pm

Don Che wrote:question is...would Kyrie come here if we sucked bad enough to get Cam Reddish/RJ. I'm not sure.

Kyrie/RJ/Knox/KP/Mitch would be a squad but even if Kyrie doesnt sign here I'd feel good about it.

1 max guy only works if we draft another max guy



doubt it. being top 4 bad means being extremely lucky in the lottery or kp had a major setback and our youth isnt at the level of boston's. kyrie would be foolish to come here if that's the case.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 9, 2018, 4:44 pm

and thats why...i think our regime is going about this from a flawed pov.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby H20Knick » August 9, 2018, 5:32 pm

Wasn't Kyrie angling to come here 2 offseasons ago when things were about as bad they can get? If KP plays 4 months and we get a bottom 3 pick, then yeah, I think Kyrie would be turned off. But if KP doesn't really suit up, I think he'll understand the process. If not, well, im still taking RJ or Cam and being happy about it.

Kyrie thinks the earth is flat. I dont know what goes on in his head.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 10, 2018, 8:05 am

everything your saying makes sense and more reasons why I dont want kyrie

only reason I'll do it is to weaken the celtics.

I want a top 4 pick unless some of these young guys take leaps in their games.

idt free agency should be on our radar
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby nazrmohamed » August 10, 2018, 11:25 am

You guys gotta remember that by the time FA stats we would've already drafted our player and by then I'd feel comfortable saying that without FAs, and if you include D-Rob, that we would've in the last 5 yrs drafted an entire starting 5.

Now we could just let that ride and not pick up an FA in 2019 however I wouldn't be upset if we started picking up a big name FA cause at least you wouldve done what I asked us to do. Fill up an entire starting 5 of lottery players all on rookie contracts. Maybe after FA someone is moved to the bench to make way for an established FA but that just means our team is deeper for it. My biggest issue is when people talk about actually trading lottery drafted players in order to ramp up for FA in the hopes that winning 10 more games will help us attract a second star. ( see Jimmy Butler now to attract Kyrie later scenarios).

If stars wanna come they come in FA but you're being added to...

Frank, 2019 lotto pick, Knox, KP, Robinson.

...not subtracting from it.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby gradyandrew » August 10, 2018, 11:38 am

Whoa, let's see how the season goes before we pencil those guys in as the future.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby spree#8 » August 10, 2018, 12:00 pm

I think it's more the fans than our regime that is thinking too much about 2019 free agency. A little bit on our strategy: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/kni ... -noah.html

Knicks president Steve Mills sounds like he doesn’t want to put all his eggs into one basket when it comes to landing a star free agent in 2019, Berman adds. “We didn’t say our ultimate goal was to have cap room in 2019 — that’s just a byproduct of the situation of how our salaries line up,” Mills said. “There’s no reason to think if Mario does really well, he shouldn’t be part of what we’re doing. Our goal is to put together a Knick team that could be competitive in the long-term.”


I think we are on course to do, what the Pacers try to do under the lead of Kevin Pritchard (whom I hoped Walsh would bring in to succeed him when he was at the helm):
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/pac ... illan.html
On what it will take for a star free agent to seriously consider the Pacers:

“If we win a series or get a little deeper into the playoffs with our flexibility, that’s our ultimate goal. A good core we believe in and then ultimately some flexibility to go after something like that. We may not get him, but you have to at least try. For me, having some success on the court, having our players enjoy the way we play and winning, that’s the best thing Indiana can provide. If you want to come, have success, have a chance to win in the playoffs, we can provide that.”


https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/cen ... s-cap.html
Pacers GM Kevin Pritchard hopes to use a majority of next summer’s cap space on his own free agents, Mark Monteith of Pacers.com reports. Rotation players Thaddeus Young, Darren Collison, Cory Joseph, Bojan Bogdanovic, and Tyreke Evans could all be free agents next summer, which would free up as much as $57MM in cap space, Monteith notes. But Pritchard would prefer to use most of the money to re-sign some of those players, as he told Monteith. “We have the season like we want to have, our free agents will be the priority,” he said. “I think this team has a chance to grow this year. … We already know these guys. They become our priority in free agency.


Pritchard wouldn't blink one second to add a superstar next summer if the opportunity presents itself, but he also knows that the team has to be successful to be an attractive option. He also understands that to be successful you have to develop the players you have and give them confidence.

I'm pretty sure from what I've heard and seen so far that Mills/Perry/Fizdale think the same way. So instead of giving everyone around the league the impression that we want to get rid of everyone to create two max slots for example, they will do everything they can do to develop the current core and only strike in free agency when an opportunity presents itself down the road. It doesn't make any sense to tear everything down for an opportunity that won't materialize when we are having a shit roster. That is so 2010.

By having the season we want to have and concentrate on Lee/Noah when it comes to creating more cap space, we for example would be able to offer one max free agent a slot, while also extending Hezonja, Burke and/or Mudiay if they perform well, add the 2019 lottery pick - all in addition to keeping KP, THJ, Knox, Ntilikina and Robinson.

So, yeah, there will be a lot of chatter about free agents joining the Knicks, but I think it is actually very unlikely that a guy like Irving will leave Boston or Butler Minnesota. They made purely financial decisions and them talking about playing together is like the Banana boat crew talking about all joining forces. None of it will actually happen and we might be better served by focusing on younger potential max guys (up to six years experience) anyways because of the finances and the better fit with our roster from an age standpoint.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby nazrmohamed » August 10, 2018, 1:53 pm

gradyandrew wrote:Whoa, let's see how the season goes before we pencil those guys in as the future.


But they are indeed our future in some capacity and that's my point. By next summer Kyrie could be an option and maybe Frank goes to the bench. Maybe Butler comes and a wing goes to the bench. Maybe Cousins comes and Robinson never gets OFF the bench.

Point is, I'd rather see a ying stud move to the bench because a prized FA is obviously better than them than trade said youngster for that big.

I'm greedy Grady. I wanna gain everything and lose nothing. But ya see that's why you draft. Only via the draft can you add potentially 2 max players yet still have a well rounded roster because you got a team full of rookie contract players. I read something crazy like that the Warrior only really started paying guys last season. Free agents like Iguodolla making more than superstars
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 10, 2018, 3:14 pm

nazrmohamed wrote:
Frank, 2019 lotto pick, Knox, KP, Robinson.



If so, Team Tank would’ve come full circle.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 10, 2018, 3:29 pm

All things considered, I’m satisfied in the direction this franchise has gone within the past few seasons. Knox, Burke, Hezonja, Ntili, Robinson, Mudiay, THJ and others bring something to the table. It’s just a matter of being coached or conditioned to hopefully bring that something to the table on a consistent and efficient basis. I can’t really say that our front office has a vision, but at least I hardly feel like they don’t know what they’re doing. And, as we all know, the ability to say as much is a major improvement considering how things have gone over the past 17 years.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Koopa Troopa » August 10, 2018, 4:58 pm

shakespeare wrote:All things considered, I’m satisfied in the direction this franchise has gone within the past few seasons. Knox, Burke, Hezonja, Ntili, Robinson, Mudiay, THJ and others bring something to the table. It’s just a matter of being coached or conditioned to hopefully bring that something to the table on a consistent and efficient basis. I can’t really say that our front office has a vision, but at least I hardly feel like they don’t know what they’re doing. And, as we all know, the ability to say as much is a major improvement considering how things have gone over the past 17 years.



Lee, Nate, Frye.

This can all come crashing down, its the Knicks. But once again I am optimistic. I have faith in Fiz and management. :drunk:
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby spree#8 » August 11, 2018, 5:44 am

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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 11, 2018, 7:57 am

Agreed — Lee, Nate and Frye were solid moves yet surrounded by a gang of questionable moves. I can’t really think of any questionable moves made on behalf of the current regime. There may be some, but not glaringly.

But I do see what you’re saying.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby nazrmohamed » August 11, 2018, 1:26 pm

spree#8 wrote:Our guys playing pick-up games: https://www.instagram.com/p/BmOv06wAcSn ... rickley603
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmPhTHiAkRv ... basketball

Ntili, THJ, Mudiay, Kanter, Lance.


Oh Bay-beee, Lance with the ill moves and between the legs air pass.

On a sidenote, I don't really need to see Ntilikina in another drill video again. They really show me nothing and I already think he has fundamental skills down already. But pickup games like these I do like. I said it before that for some players, how they do in these pickup games with no real rules or coaches doesn't really matter. But for a guy like Frank who seems so rigid and robotic in just about everything he does these types of setting are invaluable. Crazy to hear me say this but in his case,put away the fundamentals and keep finding settings where you're just balling out and having fun while being very competitive.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby gradyandrew » August 12, 2018, 4:15 am

Good points bringing up Lee, Nate, Frye, and I would add Ariza. Isaiah pretty much struck gold every time he had a chance in the draft, but was just terrible at all other aspects of being a GM, trades, free agency, coaches, and culture.

Maybe I'm more pessimistic now, but I just feel out of the current slate of young guys, no one, outside of theKP have really shown enough of anything to show that they could be a starter on a playoff team. Burke, Mudiay, Mario, Vonleh have all been in the league for years and have all been let go by their team.As fans we llike to get excited, but there needs to be some realism as well. While Knox and Mitch looked great in summer league, it's still way to early to tell if they will become useful players, i.e. the future.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby nazrmohamed » August 12, 2018, 1:10 pm

I think you can say that for most rebuilding teams, especially when the results of thier actions haven't led to the playoffs. AD want a playoff starter, until he made the playoffs and still he hasn't done much while there.

But in any case, what we're doing has more benefit than watching a team of young guys make the playoffs. By building via the draft you essentialky have created a cheap labor force. I still wanna believe we can build a playoff team from draftees but so long as we stay financially flexible we could still acquire more extensive FAs while the guys we draft (assuming you're correct Grady) fill in as depth. So I really don't think there's a down side.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby gradyandrew » August 13, 2018, 5:36 am

Orlando and Sacramento are the downside. They've been in the draft lottery for who knows many seasons and still haven't drafted any thing close to a slate of starters and have been only able to attract marginal free agents by over paying them.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
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