David Lee

[mikeaman]

Aside from getting two maximum free agents, can anyone really envision a scenario where we don't keep David Lee? I think he's gonna keep on getting better each year. If we can sign him for a backloaded contract starting at 8 million, does anyone really believe that Bosh is worth 16 million? Is Bosh twice as good as David Lee?

[ECross86]

Chris Bosh is #3 in PER ratings, David Lee is 13. Ten times better.

[H20Knick]

Lee will go for more than 8 mil, because some team will be that stupid. Bosh is worth 16 mil because he's the type of player that lures in the guy we all really want to spend 16 mil on.

Bosh can guard his own man, Lee cannot (see recent games vs. Cavs and Wiz where neither team had active centers and instead played a barrage of no name PFs that put up 20+ points on Lee.
Bosh is a better scorer in isolation, see Bosh's 24.5ppg assisted 51% of the time, see Lee's 20ppg assisted 64% of the time.
See Bosh's all star appearances and how well he fit in with the "big boys" in the last game. See Lee's lone appearance and how he looked out of place with the "big boys"

See the fact that when Toronto or Miami don't make the playoffs or put up a 50+ win season, it's considered "UNDERACHIEVIVING"... and when Lee's team puts up another 30 win season, it's expected.
See David Lee's 234 FT attempts, See Chris Bosh's 466 (either Bosh, who is branded a perimeter big, goes to the lane harder, or the refs are giving him preferential treatment, because he's.. a star"
See Chris Bosh playing all but 4% of the game at Center (per 82games.com stats), and not making excuses about his defense, even though he's a natural 4, see David Lee's frustration articles.


Walsh holds no allegiance to Lee. He's not Walsh's guy. Steph, Balkman, Z-Bo, Craw, Snacks, Q, Nate, Jeffries. All gone. Lee's just here because he's a solid player who will compete even when there's no real point.

Walsh isnt stupid. He could've saved a LOT of money last summer giving Lee a lengthy contract while his value was low (because he didn't yet have a consistent jump shot). But no, Walsh thought (rightfully so), that there would be other players available that would make Lee expendable. It's just so obvious. This is why he drafted Hill, the Lee insurance policy. When he realized he'd have enough money to go after a post guy without risking lbj, hill became expendable, and that was that. You only trade away your own draft pick in Jordan Hill if that 10 net mil is really important to you, and that 10 mil is only THAT important (losing Jeffries from a talent perspective is a NEGATIVE, because the guy was the only defender we had) when you have a 2nd max player in your mind (i.e. cb4). No way Walsh gives up his lotto pick and future draft picks to spend it on an average pg and a veteran big to play next to Lee. NO WAY.


Lee was given a 1 year contract for a REASON. That reason: ONE YEAR RENTAL.

I think of guys like Duncan and Sheed and KG who won championships this decade playing next to nitty gritty defensive centers. I then reflect on everyone's comments about how the knicks should pair Lee with one of these defenders in the same fashion. But Duncan, Sheed, and KG were all fantastic defenders of their OWN positions. Lee can't guard PFs. He couldn't even stop Varejao. He couldn't stop the no name PF's the wiz were throwing at us a few weeks ago.

Walsh will end this madness and the Lee fans will get over it the first time we don't give up 50 points in the paint. Nate fans lost their guy, Crawford fans lost their guy, Lee fans will lose theirs. Everyone sits there and brands Nate a LOSER, but Lee had the same record here. May he have a fantastic career.... somewhere else

[H20Knick]

Chris Bosh is #3 in PER ratings, David Lee is 13. Ten times better.

4.33333 times better, but yeah!

[Cambrazi]

Lee in his heart of hearts must know he and his agent should be laughed out of Donnies office if they ask for anything over $8m per. In my opinion, even that is steep. He has to realize that he is a lone ranger on a terrible team and essentially still has to prove himself.

He has proved thus far as a Knick is that he is a model pro, hard-working, honest and dedicated. Good role player. But, he has over-achieved in his career and been lucky to be on a crappy team that gave him the minutes to showcase what he had, which led to the inflation of his stats. If he's always the only guy standing next to the basket when his team-mates jack up brick after brick, he couldn't not get 10+ boards a game.

As for his defense, where do I start? But his problem on this team is that he refers to himself as a leader and a veteran of these guys but when your leader can't play defense, are they really a leader? He can't lead by example on the defensive end and that might be a problem for him for the duration of his career, unless he fits into a stable environment on a contending team and contribute, not lead.

My guess? He'll price himself out of staying here and some team will over-pay for him. Give me Amir Johnson.

[Sundov=NextMJ]

See the fact that when Toronto or Miami don't make the playoffs or put up a 50+ win season, it's considered "UNDERACHIEVIVING"... and when Lee's team puts up another 30 win season, it's expected.

Dwayne wade is a top 5 player in the league, I don't think anyone thinks lee is even close to that. Bosh also has bargnani, calderon, turkogluand a decent bench and even then his team isn't certain of making the playoffs this season. David lee for most of this season had duhon, jeffries, harrington and bunch of young developing guys (chandler, gallo). Do you remember last season when toronto weren't even a playoff team? They only won a handful of more games than the knicks.

[bobhait]

maybe it's because both Bosh and Wade have somewhat decent teams, plus D-Wade has a ring. meanwhile, name the next decent/consistent player on the Knicks after Lee... you'll come up with the saddest list in the history of Western Civilization... oh, and Bosh only had one season at above .500 thus far, so I'm not too impressed

[StevoStarks]

Bosh is way better than Lee, but he's not coming here. Better teams, with Dallas type climates are going to be on his radar. I don't think he's a New York type player honestly. So after Bosh, Wade, and Bron don't sign here, we're left with good players, but not guys that are game franchise corner stone, game changers. Not Joe Johnson. So you have to look at Lee because he's at the top of that what's left list. Maybe sign a center and play Lee at the PF? See how that works defensively for the team...

I see it as more of a process than a big 2010 splash.

[Xavier]

Apples and oranges. Bosh is a stud, Lee is a player you can do without. consider the D Lee plays, i'd take someone like Haslem over him.

[H20Knick]

Dwayne Wade got this elite perception after one good season and one good finals run next to the most dominant big in all of basketball

since then, the Heat haven't done shit. Wade played 52 games the season they won 13 games. Their record right now is barely .500 and worse than the Raptors. His per is barely higher than Bosh's.

Hedo Turkoglu is averaging 12 and 5 this season. He's not doing anything major. If you mixed the Heat roster with the Raptors roster, the third best player would be Beasley. They've got two defending bigs in O'Neal and Haslem, Q is shooting 40% from downtown. The Raptors have Bargnani, who's probably a better scorer than anyone the Heat has, but Calderon is massively overrated, and I must have missed the day when Jarrett Jack was a key piece on a good team.

Al Harrington, while everyone may call him a chuck, was a 20ppg player for most of his time here. Neither the Heat nor the Raps have 20ppg teammates for their stars.
We only say our players suck because we lose. Harrington's played on a NBA finals team before. Chandler gives you more than the likes of Antoine Wright or Sonny Weems. According to NYKFP, Gallinari is the greatest shooter since H20 himself, so I fail to see the problem here.

You can even go as far back to 2006 and say that Lee played with Steph, a 19ppg healthy eddy curry, and crawford in his best season IMO and they finished with 33 wins. Or go to the next season when Z-Bo was in the mix. But everyone will counter with the fact that Lee was young and not as good as he is now. But newsflash, Bosh has one year LESS nba experience than Lee. Bosh is YOUNGER than David Lee. Steph, Craw, and Curry or Steph, Craw, and Zach are just as good as any lineup Bosh has had in the last 4 years, but only he gets shit for not carrying his team to the playoffs at the age of 23.

I really missed the effing memo that said trading Harrington, Nate, Jeffries, Gallinari, and Chandler for Bargnani, Jarrett Jack, Antoine Wright, and SONNY WEEMS would help Lee make the playoffs. That's absolute bullshit and you all know it.

[H20Knick]

This needs a different post, so im giving it one.

If the doomsday theory of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh not coming happens, is it REALLY a good idea to bring in some 36 year old guy for a few years to cover David Lee's defensive inefficiencies? On TKB radio, Dee, Anthony with JVG brought up the excellent point that weakside defenders like Camby are pretty damn rare. The only 2 we have a shot at are Haywood and Camby. If the Mavs are good, Cuban will make sure Haywood comes back... and Marcus Camby is about to turn 36. So our big rebuilding includes bringing in a guy who's 36 years old? So he can cover the ass of the 26 year old who can't guard C's and already showed he can't guard PFs either? We can't just spend 6 mil a season for the next 10 years bringing in guys to cover Lee's ass.

Signing a guy like Lee because he's the best of the rest is an Isiah move if ever there was one. This team needs to be built of guys that can cover their own ass because our coach isn't going to help them out any there.

You bring in a guy like Ray Felton, who's shown that, while he isn't elite, he's an adequate pg when his teammates are good. Not to mention he's shooting 38% from downtown this season (oh, but apparently, Lee is the only one allowed to shed his "can't shoot" moniker around here). Back him up with Sergio.

You offer TMac a one year deal to see if he can get his athleticism back. You put Chandler back at 2 or 3 where he put up 18ppg for a few months. You pray Gallinari grows cojones. You go after a guy like Tyrus Thomas, lose some scoring, but get a guy who wont leave the lane open. He should come a lot cheaper than Lee.

Then you throw a 2 year contract to the first veteran center who will take it: Camby, Miller, i don't care.

Next you wait til 2011 and try to get Carmelo. You give Carmelo all the attention you gave Lebron until he realizes that he could be as big as Lebron just by signing on that line.

Felton/Sergio
Mcgrady/Walker
Chandler/Gallo
TyThomas/Camby
Curry/Camby

I would add Rudy Gay, but there's no way memphis lets him walk. This saves plenty of cap for 2011, where it will be less necessary because contracts will be brought down by the CBA

At least then we'd have young guys who guarded their own man while losing 50 games a season. We have no draft picks, so unless LBJ, Wade, Bosh, Melo, Durant, CP3, or Howard come in the next 3 years, we're screwed.

But the fun of rebuilding is building an entire team from scratch. We have a couple young pieces. We can start building an under-28 team full of players that guard their own men. At the very least, it'd be easier to watch. There's no point in bringing in players who couldn't play on a championship team. Joe Johnson does nothing but kill our shot at the 20111 or 2012 crop. If he couldn't get Smoove, Horford, and Bibby to the ECFs, he's not going to do it with Chandler, Gallo, and Lee. The guy is 30.

[cragganmor]

I like Dave a lot, he's my fave Knick of the current roster; I just don't know if he can be a second-best player on a championship team. He could be the third best player on a title-winner, but will he accept the commensurate level of pay? His level of defense at PF is a tough hurdle to overcome, we'd need a DPOY-grade C in his prime to counter.

He could get a massive offer from another team that doesn't want to come away empty-handed from the FA market. Some team with cap space might look at him as the missing piece and offer us first rounders in a S&T. The only likely scenario to keep Dave is that he inks a modest deal; I cannot picture DW overpaying to keep him. We need a lot more toughness on the interior defense, if Dave wants to stay a Knick, then he'll have to hit the weight room and get much stronger and aggressive.

If we do lose Dave, then I'd definitely try to sign Haywood first, then go for Camby as our starting C. I would tender a $2-4M/yr offer for Udonis Haslem, who can still defend and hit an open shot. Re-sign T-Mac and persuade him to make the transition to PG. Give a real heart-to-heart talk to both Chandler and Gallo about them needing to step up and start playing aggressively. Last but not least, make the big pitch to Lebron, he'll make the game so much easier for everyone else.

[taowave]

Great post H,but you are underestimating the hubris of Antoni....

This needs a different post, so im giving it one.

If the doomsday theory of LBJ, Wade, and Bosh not coming happens, is it REALLY a good idea to bring in some 36 year old guy for a few years to cover David Lee's defensive inefficiencies? On TKB radio, Dee, Anthony with JVG brought up the excellent point that weakside defenders like Camby are pretty damn rare. The only 2 we have a shot at are Haywood and Camby. If the Mavs are good, Cuban will make sure Haywood comes back... and Marcus Camby is about to turn 36. So our big rebuilding includes bringing in a guy who's 36 years old? So he can cover the ass of the 26 year old who can't guard C's and already showed he can't guard PFs either? We can't just spend 6 mil a season for the next 10 years bringing in guys to cover Lee's ass.

Signing a guy like Lee because he's the best of the rest is an Isiah move if ever there was one. This team needs to be built of guys that can cover their own ass because our coach isn't going to help them out any there.

You bring in a guy like Ray Felton, who's shown that, while he isn't elite, he's an adequate pg when his teammates are good. Not to mention he's shooting 38% from downtown this season (oh, but apparently, Lee is the only one allowed to shed his "can't shoot" moniker around here). Back him up with Sergio.

You offer TMac a one year deal to see if he can get his athleticism back. You put Chandler back at 2 or 3 where he put up 18ppg for a few months. You pray Gallinari grows cojones. You go after a guy like Tyrus Thomas, lose some scoring, but get a guy who wont leave the lane open. He should come a lot cheaper than Lee.

Then you throw a 2 year contract to the first veteran center who will take it: Camby, Miller, i don't care.

Next you wait til 2011 and try to get Carmelo. You give Carmelo all the attention you gave Lebron until he realizes that he could be as big as Lebron just by signing on that line.

Felton/Sergio
Mcgrady/Walker
Chandler/Gallo
TyThomas/Camby
Curry/Camby

I would add Rudy Gay, but there's no way memphis lets him walk. This saves plenty of cap for 2011, where it will be less necessary because contracts will be brought down by the CBA

At least then we'd have young guys who guarded their own man while losing 50 games a season. We have no draft picks, so unless LBJ, Wade, Bosh, Melo, Durant, CP3, or Howard come in the next 3 years, we're screwed.

But the fun of rebuilding is building an entire team from scratch. We have a couple young pieces. We can start building an under-28 team full of players that guard their own men. At the very least, it'd be easier to watch. There's no point in bringing in players who couldn't play on a championship team. Joe Johnson does nothing but kill our shot at the 20111 or 2012 crop. If he couldn't get Smoove, Horford, and Bibby to the ECFs, he's not going to do it with Chandler, Gallo, and Lee. The guy is 30.

[taowave]

Cragg,we are talking about Mike D here..

I just dont know if he can ever get his head far enough out of his ass to realise the 7SOL offense worked due to the greatness of Nash and Amare..

IMHO,he passed on Lopez as he detests traditional bigs...Now hes going to go after Haywood and Haslem??

I dont know if Dantoni can live with that,and is he really the coach you want for that style of ball??

I like Dave a lot, he's my fave Knick of the current roster; I just don't know if he can be a second-best player on a championship team. He could be the third best player on a title-winner, but will he accept the commensurate level of pay? His level of defense at PF is a tough hurdle to overcome, we'd need a DPOY-grade C in his prime to counter.

He could get a massive offer from another team that doesn't want to come away empty-handed from the FA market. Some team with cap space might look at him as the missing piece and offer us first rounders in a S&T. The only likely scenario to keep Dave is that he inks a modest deal; I cannot picture DW overpaying to keep him. We need a lot more toughness on the interior defense, if Dave wants to stay a Knick, then he'll have to hit the weight room and get much stronger and aggressive.

If we do lose Dave, then I'd definitely try to sign Haywood first, then go for Camby as our starting C. I would tender a $2-4M/yr offer for Udonis Haslem, who can still defend and hit an open shot. Re-sign T-Mac and persuade him to make the transition to PG. Give a real heart-to-heart talk to both Chandler and Gallo about them needing to step up and start playing aggressively. Last but not least, make the big pitch to Lebron, he'll make the game so much easier for everyone else.

[H20Knick]

I know you're right Tao. Tyrus is as far as he'll go. It's the entire reason why bosh makes so much sense, because he can be thrown at center and survive while not being a traditional big.

What we're seeing on the court is the lineup D'antoni wanted all along. Lee at the 5, Harrington at the 4. It's the same mess he ran in phoenix with Amare at 5 and Matrix at the 4. But we said 2 years ago that wouldn't work in the East where teams like real big men.

Lee and D'antoni are just not compatible. Until Lee can run the break and nail 3's, he's not a D'antoni 4. It's bizarre. One of them must go, or both in my dreams.

[taowave]

Well,the good news is Toronto is supposedly open to a S&T with Lee for Bosh,should Bosh want to come here..

The same reason that Dantoni wanted no part of Shaq,no part of Lopez is the same reason I just cant see him going "traditional" at the 5...

And I think you are dead on,Lee is not a Dantoni prototype at the 4....I think Ty Thomas is,which is why it amazes me that if the rumors were true,how we didnt swap Harrington for Ty...

With that said,I think Dantoni would rather see gallo at the 4 than Lee..

Hopefully Dantoni will finally come to grips with the reality that having a point guard who shoots 50% from the floor and almost 45% from 3 is not walking thru the doors anythime soon..Its time for a serious adjustment to his gameplan

I know you're right Tao. Tyrus is as far as he'll go. It's the entire reason why bosh makes so much sense, because he can be thrown at center and survive while not being a traditional big.

What we're seeing on the court is the lineup D'antoni wanted all along. Lee at the 5, Harrington at the 4. It's the same mess he ran in phoenix with Amare at 5 and Matrix at the 4. But we said 2 years ago that wouldn't work in the East where teams like real big men.

Lee and D'antoni are just not compatible. Until Lee can run the break and nail 3's, he's not a D'antoni 4. It's bizarre. One of them must go, or both in my dreams.

[cragganmor]

Cragg,we are talking about Mike D here..

I just dont know if he can ever get his head far enough out of his ass to realise the 7SOL offense worked due to the greatness of Nash and Amare..

IMHO,he passed on Lopez as he detests traditional bigs...Now hes going to go after Haywood and Haslem??

I dont know if Dantoni can live with that,and is he really the coach you want for that style of ball??

I think he passed on Lopez due to his poor footspeed. He was particularly slow among all the C's that participated in the draft camp measurements. Back then, the game plan was still SSOL and he would have been a poor fit. I think MD realizes how specialized that PHX team was and not everyone is suited for it. He did realize his mistake, adapted and played a halfcourt motion offense, which worked when the players put the effort in on defense. While Lopez has the offensive skills, he's limited as a defender, needs a very good weakside help defender to cover him.

How do you know that Mike made the pick not Donnie? Never saw that in print.

Haywood and Haslem are both good at strong side D and both can rotate to help on the weak side. On offense, Haslem can hit a 16 footer and move without the ball. Haywood is pretty happy getting his points on putbacks and can get some more offense via back door plays, he has the mobility to play well in a motion offense, which is what Flip ran with the Wiz.

[bobhait]

Bosh may be 11 months younger, but he's been in the league a full TWO seasons longer than David

[ECross86]

This is all a moot point, because we're going to end up with Joe Johnson and Ama're.

[Knickyankee3]

we may be short changing Lee. He flat out brings it every night he can finish with both hands, he's always getting his 12-15boards he's a guarenteed 20ppg he's developing the 15ft jumper and has been playing 3inches shorter and 30lb lighter than most centres- these guys don't come around every day. Now i don't think he's at allstar level-yet, he isn't indespensible nor will he ever be. But for a team with such poor focus, with a loss almost guarenteed every game sinse he was drafted- he somehow always goes out there with something to prove, always gives it his all. You can't teach that- his game improved markedly this season to last, there's no reason why he couldn't improve further this year.
I will say this though, he is a complete liability defensively guarding his man, i don't pretend to like that from a c/pf- but i think alot of teams would love to have a guy like Lee, and we can be a physical presense that can give teams fits partnering him with a big like Heywood or Camby. We can do worse than signing Lee to a reasonable contract so long as its reasonable, which i think we should have done last year.