Koopa Troopa wrote:Hes a 4 time league MVP, 3 time finals MVP. He deserves some respect. LeBron is Magic Johnson except faster and stronger. So how is Magic better? Historians, please let me know.
The same way they put Larry Bird on the list and leave Lebron off... Bird played for 12 years (Lebron has just completed his 12th year) .... same amount of rings, 5,00 more points scored, more assists, been to the finals like 6 years in a row .... oh wait Bird was a better rebounder so he is 6th All-Time but Lebron can't crack top ten!?!!?!?!
Everything Lebron does from now on is ADDING to how much better he was than Bird (and Magic IMO) not him trying to catch these two.
LeBron is definitely one of the ten greatest players, ever, after winning his 3rd ring against the greatest regular season team in NBA history, in my humble opinion. He's right there with Larry Bird (wherever anyone thinks Bird ranks). If he wins another ring and another Finals MVP, he surpasses Bird. If he wins 2 more rings, he surpasses Kobe and Duncan. (Yes, I believe both surpassed Bird). LeBron could never surpass Jordan, Magic nor Kareem. He's definitely ahead of Shaq and Hakeem, not sure how anyone believes otherwise.
Wilt and Bill Russell are not modern-day NBA so I can't accurately rank them.
For me, in the modern era, it's Jordan and then Magic and then Kareem and then Duncan and then Kobe and then Bird (and LeBron).
Titles matter and he now has 3. So gheppetto and Koop, you make a good point. Bird needs to slide down. The only think Ill say though is I feel bad for Bird cuz when he broke down, he broke down fast. It was like one day he was a superstar, the next he was a crippled old man and I think if he were able to come out at 18 like today's players he wouldve blown those scoring numbers away. But oh well, we can only deal in reality so Lebrons gotta take his slot.
See, if we're talking modern era then Kareem isn't included. To me modern era starts the day Magic and Bird were drafted. And yes Kareem was there but he was way more a 70's star than an 80's star. It's weird cause it's almost like Garnett. His title will be remembered in the late 2000s but his dominance was really on the TWolves in the 90s
Koopa Troopa wrote:Hes a 4 time league MVP, 3 time finals MVP. He deserves some respect. LeBron is Magic Johnson except faster and stronger. So how is Magic better? Historians, please let me know.
Well you got a better argument vs the rest of the list but Magic had 5 titles and if we wanna do the whole..."but Lebrons been to 6" argument, he'd still have to contend with the fact that magic lost in 4 more finals besides the ones he's won. The guy is the definition of competitor at the highest level. Magic could challenge Jordan in terms of competing at the highest levels. Less wins, just like Lebron but was in the finals almost every year of his career before HIV and probably wouldve been to a couple more had he not contacted the virus.
JMO, but I think magic came into the league with a fully formed game, he was great in his rookie season, he later developed a hook shot, but he was great for 10 years. I don't agree he wouldve won more if it werem't for the HIV, he was fading in his final playoffs against The Pistons even before he tore a hamstring.
LeBron came in playinf like a dim-wit for 6 years in Cleveland, in miami he started playing much smarter, and hence more like magic, in the last two seasons in Cleveland he may even be more dominant than Magic at his best. So far overall, magic gets the nod for his body of work, but it's close.
n8 the gr8 wrote:
The first rule of NYKFP is you don't talk about NYKFP.
Is LeBron James one of top 5 greatest players ever?
Steve Aschburner: My first reaction when I heard that was to check the Clippers’ schedule. I assumed they were about to face Cleveland and Doc, ever wily, was trying to schmooze LeBron into non-lethal mode via flattery. But then I saw they don’t clash for another month and absorbed Rivers’ comments. He’s right, of course. LeBron probably was top five before last season’s Finals, but he solidified it with his MVP work in the Cavaliers’ remarkable comeback from 3-1. I have Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain as my Nos. 1 and 2, in that order, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar holds one of the next three spots. But that still leaves room for James and one other (probably Magic Johnson).
Fran Blinebury: Yes. At this point, the only folks who would disagree are those who have “baked-in” opinions on either of the presidential candidates. To them, James could end hunger, engineer world peace and bring Tupac back to life and they’d complain about those losses in The Finals. Time to pack in the grudges. He’s lived up to the hype. Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson and LeBron. It pains me to bump Magic Johnson.
Scott Howard-Cooper: Sure. There’s no wrong answer. But LeBron has been great enough for long enough, has delivered championships, has been brilliant on offense and starred on defense that he needs to be in the conversation, even for the people who don’t put him top five yet. If someone wants to say six of seven, fine as well.
Shaun Powell: I say Doc Rivers is wrong right now, and might be right when LeBron is done and we can judge King James appropriately. Doc and I and you and many others somehow feel compelled to rank players we've never seen (my basketball memory begins with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson). Again, it's so tough to judge eras and so these top-5 and top-10 lists are tricky. Anyway, give me the game-changers (Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson) and the championship king (Bill Russell) and the greatest basketball player of all time from womb-to-rocking chair (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar). For now.
John Schuhmann: I agree. He has an unprecedented combination of size, athleticism and skill. And with six straight trips to The Finals (seven overall) in a 30-team league, he also has the resume.
Sekou Smith: I cringed when I first heard the audio of Doc's comments because I think he's spot on, and that means someone has to come out of my previous top five to make room for LeBron. That first five has been locked in for so long that you hate to move someone off the list. That said, LeBron's case for top-five status is sturdy. If you go with Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan in the backcourt, Kareem Abdul- Jabbar and Bill Russell up front that small forward spot has to be LeBron's position now. The second five is wicked, of course and filled with one-name wonders (Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon and Kobe Bryant), but LeBron has earned his top five nod.
Ian Thomsen: By the time he’s done, there will be no doubt of it. If he retired today then it would be harder to convince those of us who say that the tiebreaker In this highest of categories comes down to the number of championships. But LeBron’s passion for the game and the versatility that will enable him to adapt his style of play as he ages are going to enable him to contend for championships for as far as we can project.
Lang Whitaker: Doc is right. To me, LeBron is not only the most dominant player in the NBA today, but he's the best passer as well. He can score, he can stop anybody one-on-one, and he can beat anybody one-on-one, and he can set up his teammates, too. I don't know what metric we're using to rank the all-timers, but no matter what we're using, LeBron's one of the five best players to ever play the game.
It's hard to believe LeBron came into the league nearly 13 years ago and still shows no signs of slowing down. He is truly one of the All-Time greatest basketball players these eyes have witnessed.
Lebron is the greatest small forward of all time...right now
He's also better than Magic if you look at both sides of the ball and pure dominance
in regards to our era its him and Duncan
All time 5:
Jordan: hate him as a human and a player but i keep it real
Kareem: He's actually right below MJ..if anything tied in my book ...and is a great human being..if he was willing to sell his soul like MJ did...he'd prolly be considered 1 but thats another convo
Wilt: he scored 100 points...and led the league in assists for a year...gotta be in the top 5
Lebron: He may be the best overall player on this list..yeh i said it but he needs 1 more ring or MVP to move him but...and I'm saying this now...if Lebron takes down GSW this year..he's the greatest..PERIOD no contest no dispute from any old guy.
Duncan: played thru 2 era's in the nba...best big man i ever seen...Hakeem is right next to him..was hard to decide but i got with Timmy.
i dont just look at rings because this is a team sport and i dont just look at skills because you gotta win..both are needed..these guys have all of it.
Don Che wrote:Lebron is the greatest small forward of all time...right now
i dont just look at rings because this is a team sport and i dont just look at skills because you gotta win..both are needed..these guys have all of it.
Rings
They both have three rings a piece. LeBron's career is still going, so only time will tell if he gets another. Even if he does, I value Bird's three rings more because he was the clear leader of his team while LeBron and Wade were 1a & 1b for LeBron's 2 rings with the Heat. Plus, Bird won 3 championships in the most competitive era in the history of the game. Seriously, if you listed the 10 greatest teams of all time, Bird faced at least three of them.
Stats
Bird had similar stats but those stats came in an era that made you work for it (in terms of the way the game was officiated and the level of defense) much more so than LeBron's era. Plus LeBron's career averages are going to go down some as he exits his prime. When it's all said and done, Bird will have better career averages while LeBron will have better accumulated numbers.
So the rings and stats are comparable, but I give Bird the edge in both departments for the reasons stated. Now, here's the kicker: Bird was simply mentally tougher than LeBron. I think that's an irrefutable point. With the game on the line, you'd be crazy to go with LeBron over Bird. That seals the deal for me. Bird is still the greatest small forward of all time as far as I'm concerned.
Mentally tougher huh? He came back from 3-1 in the NBA finals?
I dont think Bird even belongs near the LeBron argument anymore. Bird also played on some super squads so that whole "Hey Bron had Wade!" argument is absurd. How many HOF'ers were on Birds squads?
Again, I didn't know how to rank Wilt and Bill Russell, so they're unranked. But I definitely understand why others ranked them. Some former All-Time greats actually ranked Wilt as the greatest player of All-Time. In my humble opinion, if LeBron wins another ring/Finals MVP, then he surpasses Bird. If he wins two more rings/Finals MVPs, then he surpasses Kobe and Duncan. I'm not sure he can surpass Kareem, Magic, and definitely not Jordan. Is he the best overall player on the list? No. That title belongs to Jordan as well. Even if the numbers say differently, I'd still say Jordan.
I've never witnessed a more amazing basketball player than Jordan. Michael Jordan scores 63 points vs Celtics, 1986 Game 2.
Koopa Troopa wrote:Mentally tougher huh? He came back from 3-1 in the NBA finals?
I dont think Bird even belongs near the LeBron argument anymore. Bird also played on some super squads so that whole "Hey Bron had Wade!" argument is absurd. How many HOF'ers were on Birds squads?
You're talking about ONE playoff series while ignoring ALL of the times he's shrunk when it counted the most. Are you arguing that LeBron is mentally tougher than Bird was? If not, then we need not discuss this point any further.
As for Bird playing with HOF'ers, he played with McHale and Parish. None of them were franchise players. They were very good, great even, but never the face of any franchise. This actually speaks to the mental toughness point. It's not just that LeBron played with franchise players... it's the way it was done. He basically admitted he couldn't do it without superstar teammates. At the time, both LeBron and Wade were both top 5 talents in the league, and Bosh was top 10. Bird NEVER had a top 5 teammate with another top 10 teammate as the THRID OPTION.
Nazr - Very interesting. Where does O'Neal rank on your All-Time list? The case for Shaquille O'Neal being 1 of the ten greatest players is much more compelling than it is for him being among the Top 6 (or eight, if Bill Russell and Wilt are included on my list). Shaq absolutely dominated offensively during the Lakers Three-Peat years, but, for me, the players on the list were better overall players whose careers are far more decorated than Shaq's HOF career. In fairness, Shaq has more rings than both LeBron and Bird, but their body of work is much more impressive.
Non - Bird won championships with HOF point guards Nate Archibald and Dennis Johnson as well. I think one of the most important feats via LeBron is he's taken 3 different head coaches to the Finals (neither the best of their era), appeared in 6 consecutive Finals, won a ring in Cleveland, and defeated and won Finals MVP versus the greatest W-L regular season team in NBA history. As some posters have pointed out, LeBron probably is the best SF ever, as we speak, but all things considered, I'd prefer to see at least one more ring/Finals MVP before I put him clearly ahead of Bird. (I'm probably just old school like that.)
Again, I didn't know how to rank Wilt and Bill Russell, so they're unranked. But I definitely understand why others ranked them. Some former All-Time greats actually ranked Wilt as the greatest player of All-Time. In my humble opinion, if LeBron wins another ring/Finals MVP, then he surpasses Bird. If he wins two more rings/Finals MVPs, then he surpasses Kobe and Duncan. I'm not sure he can surpass Kareem, Magic, and definitely not Jordan. Is he the best overall player on the list? No. That title belongs to Jordan as well. Even if the numbers say differently, I'd still say Jordan.
I've never witnessed a more amazing basketball player than Jordan. Michael Jordan scores 63 points vs Celtics, 1986 Game 2.
I commented around November, 2016, and of course a lot has changed since then. Again, I can’t honestly rank Wilt and Kareem, but respect the opinions of those who can. I can’t, though, so I exclude them from my list. NOTE: Hardly anyone ranks great players from the 60s and early 70s on their list, so that’s very telling, in my humble opinion.
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. Bird
It’ll take a minute to clarify why I currently rank LeBron as the 2nd best player my eyes have seen and thee best OVERALL player, a title previously given to Magic Johnson.
Reason being, only a few:
1) The ONLY All-NBA caliber player LeBron has played with in his prime is Wade, that’s it. Every player on the list has played with prime-time All-NBA players during their road to greatness. Some played with players that were winning franchise players, beforehand. Of the players listed, LeBron has done the absolute most with the absolute least.
2) LeBron has never played with a HOF coach.
3) In the initial Finals loss against Golden State, he led BOTH teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocked shots and steals. No one has ever done as much.
4) In his initial Finals appearance, he carried a team of less than desirables to the Finals. In his 15th season where pretty much the entire draft class of 2003 is said and done, he did it again.
5) No teenager has entered the league with more hype and more pressure and more expectation than LeBron James. He delivered, early and often.
6) He was Finals MVP of a championship team that defeated the greatest NBA team ever.
7) He has more clutch playoff baskets than anyone else, including MJ and Kobe.
8) When LeBron leaves a team, they’re lottery, rebuilding mode. Every other player on the list leaves their respective team and they’d still make the playoffs.
Theres some funny stats when people argue Jordan VS Bron. People say Jordan never lost in the finals while Bron has lost a bunch of times in the finals. OK. But Jordan lost in the first round many times while Bron was never eliminated that early. Is it better to lose in the finals or lose in the first round?
Not a fan of that argument at all. You hear it all the time.
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