"Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

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"Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby knicksH20 » January 8, 2018, 2:23 pm

AND CUE eye rolls!!!

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By Joe Gigliojgiglio@njadvancemedia.com
NJ Advance Media for NJ.com

Maybe the Knicks don't have their franchise player after all.

As the team struggles through a mid-season slump, all eyes (and hopes) in New York City basketball revolve around Kristaps Porzingis, the big man's health and putting good role players and other stars around the former No. 4 overall pick.

That, of course, comes with the premise that the Knicks have found their "franchise player" to build around.

Porzingis' stats this season--32.3 minutes, 23.8 points, 2.2 blocks per game--certainly point to an all-star caliber player with a chance to become something even more special. But according to the New York Post, two scouts think it's crazy to label Porzingis a franchise player in the mold of the NBA's best.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 8, 2018, 2:57 pm

why do i care about what scouts say? KP is top 10 in scoring and Blocks....if hes the best player or 3rd best player is irrelevant hes a part of our future and in the draft you take the best talent possible on both ends of the floor. If that pick or Frank end up better than KP down the line than so be it.

idt ppl know wtf they are talking about in regards to talent and age anymore due to Lebron lol..he's spoiled ppl's eye for talent. But hes the GOAT....everyone else thats a regular human being takes time to grow. I'd take KP at 22 over Curry at 22. Go look at the numbers its fact...and Curry was not a franchise player when he was 22 if anyone said Curry isnt a franchise player right now they'd get torched.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby spree#8 » January 8, 2018, 2:59 pm

Hey, nice to see you back. We have a whole thread dedicated to Porzingis though: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38693&start=1140

With math by H20Knicks!
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 8, 2018, 3:32 pm

And that's why you aren't a GM :D

The day KP is in the same stratosphere as Curry on offense ,you let me know.Go check their respective efficiency numbers. KP is a slightly better rebounder..

20 seconds left in the game, would you rather have the ball on Curry's hands or Mr Softy??

Don,Patty Mills and Gnob manhandled KP.Dude has no iso game.

Curry drools and licks his chops when he gets players like them checking him.

I like KP,but Beasly isca Bette scorer than him

Let's not get crazy with the Kool Aid

Don Che wrote:why do i care about what scouts say? KP is top 10 in scoring and Blocks....if hes the best player or 3rd best player is irrelevant hes a part of our future and in the draft you take the best talent possible on both ends of the floor. If that pick or Frank end up better than KP down the line than so be it.

idt ppl know wtf they are talking about in regards to talent and age anymore due to Lebron lol..he's spoiled ppl's eye for talent. But hes the GOAT....everyone else thats a regular human being takes time to grow. I'd take KP at 22 over Curry at 22. Go look at the numbers its fact...and Curry was not a franchise player when he was 22 if anyone said Curry isnt a franchise player right now they'd get torched.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 8, 2018, 4:21 pm

the fact you even think Beasley is a better scorer than KP...ur too far gone to even argue with regarding this topic.

Curry is a flat out stud...but at 22 he wasnt a franchise player..not in the slightest...in time he became one. KP can easily still become one. Since when did players not get better after being 22? and thats why i think judging him in a black and white state is retarded.

I think KP is an all star player but not with the top 5 player category but i also dont think any player in this draft is there now either. I also dont think Curry would be top 5 player in the world if it wasnt for his teams success. Put him on the Kings and his career and how you guys view him is entirely different.

Just enjoy KP being here....was Ewing better than Hakeem or David Robinson or Shaq? I'd say no but he was a dunk/starks having a pulse away from winning it all. Its all about team in regards to things like this.

because to keep it 100...theres 3 tops 4 FRANCHISE players in the nba and by franchise it means them playing w/ anyone will get them into the playoffs...everyone else is situational.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 8, 2018, 10:12 pm

Don,Don Don..Lets have a math quiz..

Whats a larger number?? >.479 or .544??

Would you rather have a player have an EFG% of .544 or .479??

Ill let you guess which player has the higher EFG,and its by a pretty wide margin.

And believe it or not Beas is actually a better passter..KP is horrific in that area

More to the point,KP is absolutely dreadful creating on his own...Beas happens to be a beast one on one. hes a scorer,just hand him the ball.

Dont confuse shooting more with being efficient .

Beas is a better scorer






Don Che wrote:the fact you even think Beasley is a better scorer than KP...ur too far gone to even argue with regarding this topic.

Curry is a flat out stud...but at 22 he wasnt a franchise player..not in the slightest...in time he became one. KP can easily still become one. Since when did players not get better after being 22? and thats why i think judging him in a black and white state is retarded.

I think KP is an all star player but not with the top 5 player category but i also dont think any player in this draft is there now either. I also dont think Curry would be top 5 player in the world if it wasnt for his teams success. Put him on the Kings and his career and how you guys view him is entirely different.

Just enjoy KP being here....was Ewing better than Hakeem or David Robinson or Shaq? I'd say no but he was a dunk/starks having a pulse away from winning it all. Its all about team in regards to things like this.

because to keep it 100...theres 3 tops 4 FRANCHISE players in the nba and by franchise it means them playing w/ anyone will get them into the playoffs...everyone else is situational.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Koopa Troopa » January 9, 2018, 5:13 am

This whole KP has anemia thing is concerning to say the least.... what does it do to his value? :?

Can you really be the number one guy with this ailment??? Im not a medical expert so I cant say...but a quick google search shows that tiredness is the number one thing that happens to people with it....and thats been pretty apparent with KP the last few weeks :?


Hes really too young to be this tired. To me it sounds like you gotta pair him up with a great PG who can create otherwise he'll be done for.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 9, 2018, 7:24 am

You are dead right on the PG addition....

He wont be toast without one,but he will have to really develop other aspects of his game....

You can see when other teams sends 2 men on him,hes like a deer caught in the headlights.

Strong quick guys give him fits and hes going to need to be craftier..

He doesn't have the handle,strength or quickness of te Freak..

Hopefully its not the anemia.




Koopa Troopa wrote:This whole KP has anemia thing is concerning to say the least.... what does it do to his value? :?

Can you really be the number one guy with this ailment??? Im not a medical expert so I cant say...but a quick google search shows that tiredness is the number one thing that happens to people with it....and thats been pretty apparent with KP the last few weeks :?


Hes really too young to be this tired. To me it sounds like you gotta pair him up with a great PG who can create otherwise he'll be done for.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby nazrmohamed » January 9, 2018, 10:06 am

Let's pump the brakes on the "hes done for" talk. Some things have already been stated. We need better PG play. At the end of the day he's a big man. I don't know many PFs with advanced post moves contrary to many people's comments. In fact there aren't even too man C with post moves. Most just float around waiting for thier pg to get them an open look by stepping outside or score out of pick and roll. Obviously KP is supposed to be more than an assisted player but let's at least get him to that point consistently and considering we don't even have that I think he's done pretty well. You put John Wall on this team and all of a sudden Wall is averaging 28 and KP a EASY 25, about 18 just on assisted baskets.

Our pgs just don't have that skill level. Frank wants to slow everything down and dump the ball inside to isolation scorers. The fact that Beasely lives for those scenarios doesn't take away from the fact that it still isn't efficient team basketball.

Next KPs simp ly gotta get stronger. Early in the season it looked like he was in control of his own space, now he's gassed but I think part of that is the refs have seemingly swallowed thier whistles. The guys bread and butter iso is a foul line jumper which he routinely gets assaulted on with no calls. And it's not just him. Jeff's gotta stand up for his players a bit.

Overall though, nothing I said takes away from the fact that we need more play making. I actually believe if THJ were here we'd have a totally different dynamic. Teams were flustered early in the year not knowing where we'd score from, now its pretty predictable. But that's scoring. We still need a play maker outside of that. Doesn't have to come from a pg but that's something we gotta address this off-season
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 9, 2018, 11:23 am

I don't think anyone had said he's done.

No doubt his game would flourish with a true PG.At this time,he doesn't have the tools to take over by himself.

Naz,2 minutes and under,you need the guy who wants the ball in his while everyone clears out.KP is not that guy as of today.Far from it.

Don chooses KP over Curry on the offensive end.
While running the offense thru a guy like Beasly is a double edged sword,teams need that guy.Im not saying Beasly is that guy,but he's far better at getting a decent shot off and making them come crunch time.

KP is special, but he is not in the same league of bigs like Durant,AD and G Freak.

More to the point,when you build a team around KP,you have to,or should factor in his obvious deficiency's. They are glaring,and I for one am shocked to hear a 22 y.o say his legs are shot 30 some odd games into the season.

That's a major major reason for concern
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Championship 16/17 » January 9, 2018, 11:27 am

I believe KP can be a #1 option but to protect him and this franchise I would get another player that can be featured as a #1 option by the trade deadline. This player, talent wise could be better than KP, but let's be real, KP will always be our franchise player, we drafted him, we love him, he represents NY. But we need to elevate the talent around him and postpone building around him with 4th option role players and worse. You're only as good as the players around you. Tim Hardaway is currently our 2nd option, on a championship team he is a 4th option player. Kanter is our 3rd option, on a championship caliber team he is a 6th man. Stack the talent and see where the pieces fall, and get a new coach to figure it all out. This could be next season. Once KP makes the All-star game, it's imperative that the Knicks focus on getting a top 5 pick in the draft. Lastly, I've been saying all season, the Knicks need a get a stud player at the trade deadline.

There is nothing wrong with Frank, just needs a couple seasons under his belt like most rookies

KP isn't soft IMO, in the beginning of the season, he acts or pretends to fall against bigger stronger players. He tried to out smart them even though someone like Dwight can throw him around like a rag doll. Now they are putting smaller players on him so he can't pretend to be pushed around, but he is actually getting out muscled. For example, Matthews from Dallas. But if you increased the talent around him, the best small defender would not be on KP, bc it would put the other players on Dallas in a disadvantaged position guarding our wing players. KP just needs to get a lil stronger bc at the end of the day he is a perimeter player, and that strength will come with time. Smaller players are a terrible matchup for him, so we got to protect him but elevating the talent around him. He will never bulk up and be in the post.

Worst case scenario is KP as a second option but still having that franchise title, if that makes sense.
Last edited by Championship 16/17 on January 9, 2018, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 9, 2018, 11:45 am

Beas is not the scorer KP is lol...guy was out the NBA less than a year ago. Beas is a bench scorer...a solid one...but this is where ppl fall in love with numbers.


I wish you could ask every GM that question along with who'd they rather have or better yet how many players would they take above KP. Tao you've said some crazy things before...this is top notch.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby knicksH20 » January 9, 2018, 11:55 am

i wonder if his demise correlates w Timmy being gone
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 9, 2018, 12:00 pm

taowave wrote:I don't think anyone had said he's done.

No doubt his game would flourish with a true PG.At this time,he doesn't have the tools to take over by himself.

Naz,2 minutes and under,you need the guy who wants the ball in his while everyone clears out.KP is not that guy as of today.Far from it.

Don chooses KP over Curry on the offensive end.
While running the offense thru a guy like Beasly is a double edged sword,teams need that guy.Im not saying Beasly is that guy,but he's far better at getting a decent shot off and making them come crunch time.

KP is special, but he is not in the same league of bigs like Durant,AD and G Freak.

More to the point,when you build a team around KP,you have to,or should factor in his obvious deficiency's. They are glaring,and I for one am shocked to hear a 22 y.o say his legs are shot 30 some odd games into the season.

That's a major major reason for concern



I wouldnt take KP's current game over Curry's obviously but I do raise the question of them being the same age..and while Curry was still good he wasnt the juggernaut he is now...so in my mind..why would I assume a player with KP's tools whos giving us over 20+ a game cant take a step forward by the time he's 25? The fact i even need to say this is retarded lol...we get a guy in top 10 in scoring and blocks and all i read is ppl complaining lmao...i understood when we had Eddy Curry going 19 and 7...hell even some of you guys were hyped about that(i wasnt lol)....we have KP going thru a rough stretch and everyone just ignores what he can do....last i checked every team thats won a ring had multiple all stars

Curry has the 2nd best player in the world/best defensive player/2nd best shooter in the NBA.
Lebron had 2 all stars on 2 separate teams
KD had a legit MVP candidate WITH HIM and didnt get to the finals.....so is Russ not a franchise player? is KD not a franchise player?
Hell even Kobe who is the prototype to franchise players to some of you had losing years till he had All stars with him and in game 7...the bigs took the game..not the "franchise" player

so in that regard shouldnt all these guys be put on notice not being franchise players?...ofcourse not because you guys only see 4 feet ahead. Forget this "build with" or "build around" mess...the distinction between the 2 is relative to everyone with an opinion...its simple...KP is talented...you get more talent and you build a culture around that talent. Its not "with" or "around" ...If Mills/Perry/Jeff have the 1st pick and feel Bagley is the guy.....PICK HIM....if they feel Ayton is the guy...PICK HIM...KP is talented/versatile enough to play with either one...so wtf is there to discuss? in a couple years whoever is better wont matter...winning does.

Every winning franchise has MULTIPLE franchise players......if the Greek Freak and Damian Lillard was here and we still lost and KP was the focal point than yeh man..bash on go wild but all of this sh*t is too early to judge. Wake me up when Frank/KP/next lottery pick here can rent a car.....till then all this noise is stupid to discuss.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 9, 2018, 12:46 pm

KP has been a big surprise the first 15 games,and he has been a big surprise in the next 15 games..

Im not sure if its Hardaways absence,teams adjusting to KP and exposing his weaknesses or the fact that he could be anemic.

No question is had shown tremendous progress,but he has fallen off a cliff.

Does it matter if he is the number 1 or number 2 option? Certainly not,but we will have to decide if he is ever going to be our starting 5 as that strongly impacts the Kanter decision.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 9, 2018, 1:17 pm

if we are in the lottery...i'd go with the best talent on both ends of the floor...and let that dictate where KP is

if we are later in the draft..i'd focus mainly on the perimeter...this draft is top heavy with frontline players

dont be surprised if Hardaway and to a lesser extent Burke give this team an entirely different look on offense...much harder to put the Wesley matthews of the world on KP if those guys are hitting shots from the perimeter
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby nazrmohamed » January 9, 2018, 1:23 pm

taowave wrote:I don't think anyone had said he's done.

No doubt his game would flourish with a true PG.At this time,he doesn't have the tools to take over by himself.

Naz,2 minutes and under,you need the guy who wants the ball in his while everyone clears out.KP is not that guy as of today.Far from it.

Don chooses KP over Curry on the offensive end.
While running the offense thru a guy like Beasly is a double edged sword,teams need that guy.Im not saying Beasly is that guy,but he's far better at getting a decent shot off and making them come crunch time.

KP is special, but he is not in the same league of bigs like Durant,AD and G Freak.

More to the point,when you build a team around KP,you have to,or should factor in his obvious deficiency's. They are glaring,and I for one am shocked to hear a 22 y.o say his legs are shot 30 some odd games into the season.

That's a major major reason for concern


Who cares about what he said in an interview. It was the talk of the week, he comes out the next game and scores 28pts. My coaching to him would be more " everyone's tired, you could've been tired that night. Nobody needs you as the leader to be so transparent about it" And that's about it. Let's move on.

Now speaking to who he is as a player. You listed a bunch of guys who are wings essentially. What you eluded to is an entire skillset which basically speaks to the entire nba.

Most teams best players aren't big men, period. And keep in mind, AD was added but in all his glory he don't win games. Now if you just want to just make that a law, or better yet a constant then Ok, I can go there. Maybe that's just what the nba is about now. But I'm not gonna sit here and say that KP and KP exclusively isn't a franchise player because he needs a PG.

ALL BIGS NEED PGS!!!!

Find me a big whose crossing guys up at the 3 or line and scoring on dribble drive isoaltion. You can't. And the bigs that score in iso, do so in the post and I'll remind you..... At the peril of thier teams.

So what do you do? You for once in our existence identify where we have a strength and find complimentary pieces. And not complimentary as if to say you find a role player who fits. You could find a star complimentary player. Idk, but I'm so tired of NY not having the right pieces and then saying. " well a true star would figure it out"

Even Durant and LeBron didn't truly figure it out. They bolted to teams that gave them what they needed to win.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby taowave » January 9, 2018, 1:42 pm

Are you NUTS?? :D

Have you EVER heard a 22 year old ball player complain about how tired his legs are 3o games into the season? And then for the very first time Anemia is brought up??

I mentioned a bunch of guys who are true Unicorns...7 footers who are wings that can dribble,pass ,rebound and score..You are discounting them as bigs,because thay DO have the skills ,to cross guys up,dunk on your noggin or hit the 3..

But they are 7 footers,you cant deny that. Obviously Freak and Durant are better examples.

People are starting to say KP needs a PG because he cant post up Patty Mills,Gnob,not too mention singlehandedly take over a game. Doesnt mean he wont be able to tomorrow,but he cant do it today..And at some point he needs to be able to see

the double and pass out of it.

Durant figured it out,but he wont hammer westbrook publicly

nazrmohamed wrote:


Who cares about what he said in an interview. It was the talk of the week, he comes out the next game and scores 28pts. My coaching to him would be more " everyone's tired, you could've been tired that night. Nobody needs you as the leader to be so transparent about it" And that's about it. Let's move on.

Now speaking to who he is as a player. You listed a bunch of guys who are wings essentially. What you eluded to is an entire skillset which basically speaks to the entire nba.

Most teams best players aren't big men, period. And keep in mind, AD was added but in all his glory he don't win games. Now if you just want to just make that a law, or better yet a constant then Ok, I can go there. Maybe that's just what the nba is about now. But I'm not gonna sit here and say that KP and KP exclusively isn't a franchise player because he needs a PG.

ALL BIGS NEED PGS!!!!

Find me a big whose crossing guys up at the 3 or line and scoring on dribble drive isoaltion. You can't. And the bigs that score in iso, do so in the post and I'll remind you..... At the peril of thier teams.

So what do you do? You for once in our existence identify where we have a strength and find complimentary pieces. And not complimentary as if to say you find a role player who fits. You could find a star complimentary player. Idk, but I'm so tired of NY not having the right pieces and then saying. " well a true star would figure it out"

Even Durant and LeBron didn't truly figure it out. They bolted to teams that gave them what they needed to win.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby StevoStarks » January 9, 2018, 2:28 pm

This is classic sports critic rhetoric. Someone makes a claim about a player being something or not being something. Of course they have their reasons they came to this conclusion, and some make sense. But at the end of the day, what happens is what happens. Porzingis has shown some signs that he can be great, and signs that he can't consistently do it. Time will tell. But this is the kind of garbage that ESPN runs 24/7 that I really don't give a shit about. I'm just going to watch this kid grow, get better and hopefully lead our team to greatness.

What about the scouts that said Durant would have trouble in the NBA because of his lack of strength at the combine. Because he couldn't bench a certain amount.

Whether or not KP is a championship caliber #1, he's certainly going to get paid like one so we're going to have to pony up if we bet on him long term.
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Re: "Porzingis isn't a franchise player"

Postby Don Che » January 9, 2018, 2:37 pm

God forbid we get a wing player that can pass and a Center that can switch on the perimeter

i remember everyone (including myself) saying this about Dirk.....and he shut ppl up when he was in his 30's. So I'll wait and be patient.
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