State of the Union

[washingtonparkjones]

How's ObamaCare working out Mr. President? You rat bastard

Working really well actually. So well that you don't hear a peep about it in the campaigns anymore.

[knicksfan4life]

Isn't it something to see the intelligent and the ignorant engage in a dialogue?

[dcapodic]

Working really well actually. So well that you don't hear a peep about it in the campaigns anymore.

Think you may have been hearing just the quiet before the storm. I could quote countless articles about this statement:

Working really well actually.

Failing exchanges, huge price increases, etc. but to the idea that it is no longer a political issue:

http://news.yahoo.com/health-care-repeal-vote-open-133624418.html

[qdman]

Anyone claiming that America's economy is in decline is peddling fiction.

Hey I think this guy is talking about me!

[washingtonparkjones]

Obamacare still popular.

Runaway inflation and financial collapse do not seem to have occurred.

Anyone wrong yet over there?

Just curious if reality has penetrated.

[rebound]

obamacare will always be popular. it covers preexisting conditions and gives free coverage to low income people. That's unrelated to it's sustainability financially. not to come off as scrooge mcgee, but personally my premium became painfully high.

america has a health crisis and mandating blanket coverage doesnt seem realistic for a populace that has extremely high incidents of obesity, alcoholism, and drug abuse. if that's the case then there needs to be more sin taxes to help pay for it or lifetime limits.
americans want it both ways. they want socialized medicine and the freedom to live an unhealthy lifestyle. you really cant have it all as there's a cost to these things and we can't pretend that we live in a post scarcity utopia. also if we are going to do this socialized medicine thing, we really don't need to add on to costs by providing and mandating it through for profit private insurance companies.

[washingtonparkjones]

america has a health crisis and mandating blanket coverage doesnt seem realistic for a populace that has extremely high incidents of obesity, alcoholism, and drug abuse. if that's the case then there needs to be more sin taxes to help pay for it or lifetime limits.

I'd have no issue with sin tax. Boulder has a pretty severe tax on high sugar drinks for instance. When I say severe, I mean like 25% severe. Its actually 2cents per oz but it works out to 20-25% in most cases. I pay a lot more for soda, but I also make healthier choices many times as a result. Love it.

I have no issue with increased premiums for the obese.

I have no issue on lifetime limits for rehab. Addiction can't be filtered for in advance so you can't adjust premiums like you would for obesity. However, I have no issue with a three strikes rule. People need the opportunity to get clean, and we need to be real that it often takes a second or third stint to get clean. Beyond that - I'm not their parents.

also if we are going to do this socialized medicine thing, we really don't need to add on to costs by providing and mandating it through for profit private insurance companies.

I agree that traditional insurance just increases overhead and is largely a failure. the private sector makes money off of the difference between premiums and benefits. If you spend a dollar on admin and it nets you 2 dollars in denied benefits then you keep adding admin until the diminishing returns zero out. One of those lovely scenarios when purposeful inefficiency is more profitable. That needs to end.

However, the most efficient systems in the world often have private/public cooperative systems. If I had my way I'd come up with a basic coverage that put an emphasis on preventative methods (cheaper) and charge everyone for the basic coverage as a straight tax - basically increase the medicare deduction from your paycheck while eliminating your employer provided health care deduction line. Should be close to a net zero change to paychecks. However, rather than having medicare run benefits, I'd outsource that to private sector on a flat fee per patient basis. Flat fee would drive efficiency.

[washingtonparkjones]

We are now in year 9 since this thread started. Every few years I revive to see if reality has kicked in.

Since the last go, its now two years later (over 8 years total) and dcap and q are still coming up empty on their predictions.

I bet they still think they were somehow right. Reality never seems to penetrate.

In fact I just heard some fucktard republican actually say there's been a "crisis" on the boarder for the past 30 years. Makes my head want to explode - admitting the situation is thirty years running and still calling it a "crisis." I seriously think that people have rendered themselves completely immune to the demands of rational dialog.

If you FEEL it, it's true. That's the new "reality." Whatever my fucktard brain feels is true must be true. I find it most prevalent on the Right, but I blame the Left. This is the legacy of political correctness and elevating feelings to a category of things that must be respected.

[washingtonparkjones]

Revived this go round specifically because THERE IS NO STATE OF THE UNION at this point. This is were conservative have taken us. So much winning

[dcapodic]

We are now in year 9 since this thread started. Every few years I revive to see if reality has kicked in.

Since the last go, its now two years later (over 8 years total) and dcap and q are still coming up empty on their predictions.

I bet they still think they were somehow right. Reality never seems to penetrate.

In fact I just heard some fucktard republican actually say there's been a "crisis" on the boarder for the past 30 years. Makes my head want to explode - admitting the situation is thirty years running and still calling it a "crisis." I seriously think that people have rendered themselves completely immune to the demands of rational dialog.

If you FEEL it, it's true. That's the new "reality." Whatever my fucktard brain feels is true must be true. I find it most prevalent on the Right, but I blame the Left. This is the legacy of political correctness and elevating feelings to a category of things that must be respected.

Since the last go, its now two years later (over 8 years total) and dcap and q are still coming up empty on their predictions.

What is it that you are waiting to hear? What predictions do you say I made that I am coming up empty on?

To my knowledge, I posted once in this thread:

Failing exchanges, huge price increases, etc. but to the idea that it is no longer a political issue:

http://news.yahoo.com/health-care-repea ... 24418.html

Point 1:

Virtually every big underwriter has pulled out of the exchanges and the government is essentially keeping them afloat. If you want to make a point, jump on the fact that the GOP had 2 years with control over congress and got nothing done.

Point 2:

I don't think there is any argument that there have been sharp premium increases, is there?

Point 3:

Again, you are arguing that the health care system is not a huge political issue? Good luck with that!

WPJ....you seem to be picking up the talent of fake news that is so prevalent in today's days!! Were you drinking/smoking or just looking top pick a fight out of boredom.

Reality never seems to penetrate.

Could not agree more. What is even more scary these days is that the truth seems to have little place in today's opinions. Let's bring out an example....

Covington High School (a Christian high school) kids go on a field trip to Washington to take part in a Right to Life march. As with many groups that go to these things, they make their way back to the Lincoln Memorial to wait for their bus home. Along the way they walk past a group of people that decide to start calling them every name in the book. Being high school aged, you might think that they would retaliate. They don't they just keep going by and settle under the Lincoln Memorial. The group of people they passed continues to follow them and hurl insult after insult, really bad vile stuff. The kind of things that most "men" would have to face up to and go back at them but no, these kids didn't. Next up, some guy beating a drum walks towards them and as he gets there, he walks right into the group. The kids part to allow hi to walk through but he stops in front of one kid and puts a drum into his face and starts to beat it. The kid does not do anything except stare back at the man. Yada, yada, yada....so how does today's media portray this? Well, you know, I know I don't need to update you about this. Zip ahead....a long phone movie of the entire incident comes out and validates everything the kids say, to the letter and invalidates virtually everything the man with the drum says. So, does the media start giving their mea culpa? Of course not, instead they double down on placing the blame on the people that the phone movie completely exonerates.

Truth has little meaning where social "justice" makes its decisions.

Reality never seems to penetrate.

Yes, my fiend...so true.

If you FEEL it, it's true. That's the new "reality." Whatever my fucktard brain feels is true must be true. I find it most prevalent on the Right, but I blame the Left. This is the legacy of political correctness and elevating feelings to a category of things that must be respected.

….I blame the Left. This is the legacy of political correctness and elevating feelings to a category of things that must be respected.

Yuppers.

I find it most prevalent on the Right....

If you truly believe this, you are seeing with your heart and not your eyes and mind. Use example above as one of many examples proving this point.

[washingtonparkjones]

The ACA is so popular at this point that Democrats ran on the promise to preserve it, and a whole slew of Republican candidates claimed to support it. It's popular and it works. It could be much better but it's being undermined instead of being improved.

Premiums spiking in reaction to an end to the mandate is the obvious and predicted result. That is not the fault of the ACA. Same for underwriters leaving in response to Trumps efforts to stop paying for benefits.

Premiums in some areas went up minor amounts, some went up dramatically, some had decreases. However, on aggregate, the ACA dramatically decreased the rate at which insurance rate had been skyrocketing prior to its enactment.

Zip ahead....a long phone movie of the entire incident comes out and validates everything the kids say, to the letter and invalidates virtually everything the man with the drum says. So, does the media start giving their mea culpa? Of course not, instead they double down on placing the blame on the people that the phone movie completely exonerates.

Except this is total nonsense. The mea culpa was massive across the media. I watched it happen over and over. In fact, the most notable things about the entire incident were (1) how quickly and thoroughly the about face occurred, and (2) how much people like you continued to assert that there was no correction when virtually every talking head on MSN and CNN did lengthy pieces on how the initial reports were misleading.

Yes there are still people who do not count a bunch of kids in MAGA hats who were in DC for the specific purpose of political activism as blameless in escalating a political confrontation, or count them as particularly admirable in their approach. They acted like teens, which is to say arrogant smug and stupid. Personally, I saw three groups of idiots. My conclusion that the kids acted like the indoctrinated morons has zero to do with support for any of the other idiots involved. I have no clue what the Native American guy has even said. The main kid has said himself he should have just walked away, and he's correct - but let me be clear, the whole thing is a nothing burger. People go to DC to air grievances. Arguments break out. So what? That's democracy. Overall, the incident wasn't even newsworthy and shows how a foreign agency can drop in these little social media bombs to divide us.

The problem is you are continuing to further this effort with the divisive lie that "the media" made no corrections and is therefore untrustworthy when the reality is - the media may make errors, but on issues of fact our media has an exemplary history of correcting errors and getting to the truth.

You want an example of how conservatives pull emotionally reactive bullshit - you are the example. This is the example. You got upset and are now refusing to acknowledge the reality in front of you that EVERYONE GETS THE FULL INCIDENT AT THIS POINT BECAUSE OF THE MEDIA.

Complete bullshit as usual there dcap. Nonsense from start to finish. Emotionally reactive nonsense.

[washingtonparkjones]

If you truly believe this, you are seeing with your heart and not your eyes and mind. Use example above as one of many examples proving this point.

Here's the thing - I don't operate on beliefs. I hate the soft fuzzy little fuckers.

I have theories that I try to test with data and predictions. My theories don't always pan out so I try not to get too attached. On some things, where I've put in the work to develop some expertise, I feel more solid in my theories. I understand that there are people who have put in the work who come to different conclusions, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the off-cuff opinion of anyone who has not put in rigorous work on political science, economic and law.

That's my framework. Fuck beliefs.

Your prediction was that repeal of the ACA would continue to be a political issue. For the past year, there were no more efforts at repeal. In the last election, it plainly was not issue for the right. NO republicans ran on repeal. Some may endorse it, but none ran on it.

You were plainly and clearly wrong that repeal would continue to be an issue. It's dead.

I predict that we will see a Democrat in the WH in 2021 and overhaul of the ACA in the following year. After that, it will be a permanent fixture.

Check back with you in three years.

[dcapodic]

The ACA is so popular at this point that Democrats ran on the promise to preserve it, and a whole slew of Republican candidates claimed to support it. It's popular and it works. It could be much better but it's being undermined instead of being improved.

Premiums spiking in reaction to an end to the mandate is the obvious and predicted result. That is not the fault of the ACA. Same for underwriters leaving in response to Trumps efforts to stop paying for benefits.

Premiums in some areas went up minor amounts, some went up dramatically, some had decreases. However, on aggregate, the ACA dramatically decreased the rate at which insurance rate had been skyrocketing prior to its enactment.



Except this is total nonsense. The mea culpa was massive across the media. I watched it happen over and over. In fact, the most notable things about the entire incident were (1) how quickly and thoroughly the about face occurred, and (2) how much people like you continued to assert that there was no correction when virtually every talking head on MSN and CNN did lengthy pieces on how the initial reports were misleading.

Yes there are still people who do not count a bunch of kids in MAGA hats who were in DC for the specific purpose of political activism as blameless in escalating a political confrontation, or count them as particularly admirable in their approach. They acted like teens, which is to say arrogant smug and stupid. Personally, I saw three groups of idiots. My conclusion that the kids acted like the indoctrinated morons has zero to do with support for any of the other idiots involved. I have no clue what the Native American guy has even said. The main kid has said himself he should have just walked away, and he's correct - but let me be clear, the whole thing is a nothing burger. People go to DC to air grievances. Arguments break out. So what? That's democracy. Overall, the incident wasn't even newsworthy and shows how a foreign agency can drop in these little social media bombs to divide us.

The problem is you are continuing to further this effort with the divisive lie that "the media" made no corrections and is therefore untrustworthy when the reality is - the media may make errors, but on issues of fact our media has an exemplary history of correcting errors and getting to the truth.

You want an example of how conservatives pull emotionally reactive bullshit - you are the example. This is the example. You got upset and are now refusing to acknowledge the reality in front of you that EVERYONE GETS THE FULL INCIDENT AT THIS POINT BECAUSE OF THE MEDIA.

Complete bullshit as usual there dcap. Nonsense from start to finish. Emotionally reactive nonsense.

Did you hve some fun with this?

I hope so....but now let's step back into reality. I will help you out a bit with this WPJ. My hobby is news....has been for more years than I can remember. I watch shows live and tape concurrent shows and watch them later. During the day I read from various news outlets almost constantly whenever I have free time. It is just what I do.

Except this is total nonsense. The mea culpa was massive across the media. I watched it happen over and over. In fact, the most notable things about the entire incident were (1) how quickly and thoroughly the about face occurred, and (2) how much people like you continued to assert that there was no correction when virtually every talking head on MSN and CNN did lengthy pieces on how the initial reports were misleading.

In what world did this happen....not on Earth. Just mention how many examples you want of this not happening and I can provide. Just you even hinting at this, you act like a lot of snobby intellectual "wannabes" do.....you assume that he person you are interacting with cannot possible know more than you. I never assume that, I wait for them to prove it as you did here. It really is a shame but so be it. There is not much I can say in reply to you unless you want to play catchup and get up to my speed on the subject because you are SO behind and so ill informed....or are you just bluffing. I am gonna take that route because I know you say you are not emotional about this stuff, so if I don't take the bluffing route, I have to believe that you really are that off in your assessments which means my time is being wasted here.

Let me give you another hint....I have no issue admitting when I am wrong or have misstated something. I actually kinda like when someone provides me fodder for thought that I either had not considered or looked at. I wish you could provide that, it would make for interesting exchanges. But alas, you just throw the same stuff that CNN or the Huffington Post spews out everyday and if I want to see that, well I already do so I don't need a repeat from you

You opened the interchange by saying you were waiting for something from me....I tried to provide it and throw out an example for interesting debate and you give me Rachel Maddow in return.


Open your mind my friend and your ideas will flow more freely. Don't feel you have to follow the herd ALL the time. I threw you a bone, a softball to be batted out of the park:

If you want to make a point, jump on the fact that the GOP had 2 years with control over congress and got nothing done.

....and you swung and missed.

Anyways, it's late and I islike wasting time and putting any more energy into this is just that.

[washingtonparkjones]

I'm not assuming anything. I stated a fact about two networks and if you say you watched and saw no retractions you're a fucking liar.

CNNs lineup is Blitzer, Burnett, Cooper, Cuomo, Lemon. I personally watched every single one of them state that there was initial misreporting, that the account the edited video came from was fake, and the full video shows Black Israelites provoking the initial confrontation. EVERY SINGLE ONE. If you say you watched and they didn't, you're a fucking liar.

MSNBC's lineup is Melber, Matthews, Maddow, Hayes, ODonell. I personally watched every single one of them state that there was misreporting, that the account the edited video came from was fake, and the full video shows Black Israelites provoking the initial confrontation. EVERY SINGLE ONE. If you say you watched and they didn't, you're a fucking liar.

The commentary blamed the kids to varying degrees, which is a totally different issue from reporting the full facts. Everyone reported the full facts. If you say you watched and they didn't you're a fucking liar.

Basically, you're a fucking liar.

[dcapodic]

I'm not assuming anything. I stated a fact about two networks and if you say you watched and saw no retractions you're a fucking liar.

CNNs lineup is Blitzer, Burnett, Cooper, Cuomo, Lemon. I personally watched every single one of them state that there was initial misreporting, that the account the edited video came from was fake, and the full video shows Black Israelites provoking the initial confrontation. EVERY SINGLE ONE. If you say you watched and they didn't, you're a fucking liar.

MSNBC's lineup is Melber, Matthews, Maddow, Hayes, ODonell. I personally watched every single one of them state that there was misreporting, that the account the edited video came from was fake, and the full video shows Black Israelites provoking the initial confrontation. EVERY SINGLE ONE. If you say you watched and they didn't, you're a fucking liar.

The commentary blamed the kids to varying degrees, which is a totally different issue from reporting the full facts. Everyone reported the full facts. If you say you watched and they didn't you're a fucking liar.

Basically, you're a fucking liar.

Basically, you're a fucking liar.

Point me. Whenever someone goes there you know they have nothing else. The sad thing is I had hope for you....you dissapoint me.

Oh well.

[StevoStarks]

I can feel the love in this thread.

[dcapodic]

I can feel the love in this thread.

It would be nice to be able to discuss and/or debate something without it getting ugly but unfortunately, meanness, swearing, etc is a tactic used by people that have simply run out of ideas, thoughts or perspective and simply decide to try and shout the other person down. It really is a core problem these days. People can never simply accept that someone may think differently than them and, heaven forbid, might acrtually have some good points to make counter to their own beliefs.

As a person, you should always want to know the truth or reality but it is a moving target. People however seem to be very set in their ways today and unable to bend or mold with the times. Accepting change is all about having an open mind to difference, better or worse, agreeable or not. It's ok to understand that occaisionally you may need to live with or accept thngis you may not agree with but welcome to the real world Doesn't mean that you have to change your core beliefs, just understand that other people may feel differently and, hard as it is to believe, they may be "right" or better said, more in tune with what the real issue of the moment is.

My favorite expression to use and I have done it several times on this site...."I hadn't really looked at it that way, you have given me something to think about" or thereabouts. It is great to have your eyes opened to new idea and perspectives. I am not sure why people fight so hard against this.

[StevoStarks]

It would be nice to be able to discuss and/or debate something without it getting ugly but unfortunately, meanness, swearing, etc is a tactic used by people that have simply run out of ideas, thoughts or perspective and simply decide to try and shout the other person down. It really is a core problem these days. People can never simply accept that someone may think differently than them and, heaven forbid, might acrtually have some good points to make counter to their own beliefs.

As a person, you should always want to know the truth or reality but it is a moving target. People however seem to be very set in their ways today and unable to bend or mold with the times. Accepting change is all about having an open mind to difference, better or worse, agreeable or not. It's ok to understand that occaisionally you may need to live with or accept thngis you may not agree with but welcome to the real world Doesn't mean that you have to change your core beliefs, just understand that other people may feel differently and, hard as it is to believe, they may be "right" or better said, more in tune with what the real issue of the moment is.

My favorite expression to use and I have done it several times on this site...."I hadn't really looked at it that way, you have given me something to think about" or thereabouts. It is great to have your eyes opened to new idea and perspectives. I am not sure why people fight so hard against this.

I love that!