Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

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If you were Timberwolves, what offer would you accept?

Warriors
3
27%
Cavs
7
64%
Bulls
1
9%
 
Total votes : 11

Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby shakespeare » July 22, 2014, 4:27 pm



So I'm hearing the Warriors offered Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes, and David Lee.

Cavs offered Wiggins, Bennett and next year's first round pick in the draft.

Now, I'm hearing Bulls offer could include Taj Gibson, Jimmy Butler and other assets.

I understand why Cavs have no choice but to go after Love. LeBron says so, and that's all that needs to be said. While it would be nice to see LeBron take Wiggins under his wings, I guess LeBron doesn't have 2-3 years to wait on "player development." I also understand why Warriors are breaking their necks to obtain Love - it would be foolish for GS to tie all the majority of their cap space in their backcourt, imo. That said, GS offered way too much production for Love. And I might be able to understand why Bulls are throwing their hat into the mix. One can never have enough talent on their team. But to offer Taj Gibson and Jimmy Butler is absolutely insane. You have to be kidding me. I read the offer in a SI article this morning, and I could not believe it.

Granted, I haven't really watched Kevin Love outside of a few games, here and there. All I know is that he's a numbers guy who can drain the 3. But is he really worth all of this talent?
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby CommonSense » July 22, 2014, 4:43 pm

Looking at those 3 offers straight up for Kevin Love, I agree the Warriors offer would bring back the most production, and if you want to contend for the playoffs in the West in the near future, you take that. Having said that, I think BPD posted in some thread that the Warriors wanted Love, Kevin Martin AND a 1st rounder for their package, which sways it toward Cleveland for me. They offer the most promising package for the future, which I think the T-Wolves should be looking toward if they trade Love. Chicago's package is the weakest for me, despite the immense talent(s) they are offering. Even though I wouldn't enjoy our team having to contend with a Cavs team with Kyrie, Lebron and Love in the East, I think that's the best package for the T-Wolves, with an eye toward the future. As far as if Kevin Love is worth it, he's never played on a contending team, but with his numbers, I'd have to believe he would make any of those team a serious contender, if not the favorite, in their respective conference.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby H20Knick » July 22, 2014, 4:45 pm

Tough call between the trades... if i'm ranking the pieces in terms of skill, potential, and how long Minny can keep them locked under contract (this is how I put thompson behind wiggins):

Wiggins > Thompson > Barnes > Lee > Bennett > Cleveland's 1st rounder which is doomed to be extremely late.

If Minny can get some sort of assurances that Thompson will sign a long term deal in RFA with Minny, then I think I take the GSW trade. If not, I take the Cleveland trade and lock down wiggins.

I don't think either trade is "giving up too much talent" for love at all. I know his defense isn't great and his teams don't make the playoffs, but I still don't get why everyone's still so skeptical of Love's game. The guy is a monster on the glass. A damn terror. He could fix the knicks rebounding issues by himself. Shot 37.6% from deep last year, but IMO he takes too many threes. Is he better than Klay Thompson? Absolutely. Is Harrison Barnes a year away from RFA coming off another mediocre campaign? Yep. DLee is the big question mark. Love is like the supreme version of David Lee. Lee's a good passer, Love is a great one. Lee is a great rebounder, but Love is a supreme on. Lee has decent range, Love has deep range. If Lee hasn't been the perfect fit for them, I don't see how Love is such a huge improvement that its going to change their prospects once you compound it with losing Thompson.

It makes a lot more sense for the Cavs. Wiggins has a lot of talent, but he's pretty raw and didn't exactly play very well in the tourney. Lebron will help him out a lot, but you don't want Lebron getting older waiting for Wiggins to evolve into Robin. Love is ready right now. Bennet didn't do jack diddly last year anyway, and in the eastern conference competing for championships, that pick shouldn't make too big of a difference


I do find it to be fucking hilarious though that the media is saying "ARE THE WARRIORS CRAZY FOR RISKING MISSING OUT ON LOVE JUST TO KEEP KLAY THOMPSON" and "ARE THE CAVALIERS NUTS FOR RISKING MISSING OUT ON LOVE FOR THE UNPROVEN RAW TALENT OF ANDREW WIGGINS"... when it was "DOLAN IS A FUCKING MORON FOR GIVING UP GALLINARI, CHANDLER, MOZGOV, and FAILTON" for Carmelo Anthony and the reigning 3rd team all nba pg


oh, and i didnt address the bulls offer because its awful compared to the other two. If this were NBA 2k14, Minny's GM would no longer accept your calls.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby StevoStarks » July 22, 2014, 4:56 pm

H20Knick wrote:Tough call between the trades... if i'm ranking the pieces in terms of skill, potential, and how long Minny can keep them locked under contract (this is how I put thompson behind wiggins):

Wiggins > Thompson > Barnes > Lee > Bennett > Cleveland's 1st rounder which is doomed to be extremely late.

If Minny can get some sort of assurances that Thompson will sign a long term deal in RFA with Minny, then I think I take the GSW trade. If not, I take the Cleveland trade and lock down wiggins.

I don't think either trade is "giving up too much talent" for love at all. I know his defense isn't great and his teams don't make the playoffs, but I still don't get why everyone's still so skeptical of Love's game. The guy is a monster on the glass. A damn terror. He could fix the knicks rebounding issues by himself. Shot 37.6% from deep last year, but IMO he takes too many threes. Is he better than Klay Thompson? Absolutely. Is Harrison Barnes a year away from RFA coming off another mediocre campaign? Yep. DLee is the big question mark. Love is like the supreme version of David Lee. Lee's a good passer, Love is a great one. Lee is a great rebounder, but Love is a supreme on. Lee has decent range, Love has deep range. If Lee hasn't been the perfect fit for them, I don't see how Love is such a huge improvement that its going to change their prospects once you compound it with losing Thompson.

It makes a lot more sense for the Cavs. Wiggins has a lot of talent, but he's pretty raw and didn't exactly play very well in the tourney. Lebron will help him out a lot, but you don't want Lebron getting older waiting for Wiggins to evolve into Robin. Love is ready right now. Bennet didn't do jack diddly last year anyway, and in the eastern conference competing for championships, that pick shouldn't make too big of a difference


I do find it to be fucking hilarious though that the media is saying "ARE THE WARRIORS CRAZY FOR RISKING MISSING OUT ON LOVE JUST TO KEEP KLAY THOMPSON" and "ARE THE CAVALIERS NUTS FOR RISKING MISSING OUT ON LOVE FOR THE UNPROVEN RAW TALENT OF ANDREW WIGGINS"... when it was "DOLAN IS A FUCKING MORON FOR GIVING UP GALLINARI, CHANDLER, MOZGOV, and FAILTON" for Carmelo Anthony and the reigning 3rd team all nba pg


oh, and i didnt address the bulls offer because its awful compared to the other two. If this were NBA 2k14, Minny's GM would no longer accept your calls.


Just your typical NY Knick hate going on.

Speaking of, how about this hilarious article about Melo's contract:

Is Melo's contract worst among 2014 free agents?

One metric ranks Carmelo Anthony’s contract as the worst that’s been handed out so far in NBA free agency.

ESPN Insider Tom Haberstroh has a metric to measure the value –- or lack thereof –- of contracts agreed to so far this summer.

He compared the player’s average annual salary to the amount expected based on the player's age and 2013-14 production.

Carmelo’s deal -– worth $124 million over five years -– ranked worst in Haberstroh’s ranking.

Writes Haberstroh:

“According to the metrics, Anthony will be one of the most overpaid players in the game.

Like most, RPM sees Anthony as a below-average player on the defensive end. As such, he needs to be otherworldly on offense to warrant a $125 million commitment. Anthony's a great scorer, but he rated as only the 18th-best offensive player in the league last season. That's probably a bit unkind, but Melo's age and defensive struggles make this contract a dubious one by any estimation.”

Habrestroh ranks Chris Bosh’s deal with Miami and Utah’s deal with Gordon Hayward as the second and third worst of the offseason.

Anthony, for what it’s worth, has an early termination option for the fifth and final year of his contract and also has a no-trade clause.

For more on Haberstroh’s methodology and which contracts he rates highest and lowest, click here.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/58067/is-melos-contract-worst-among-2014-free-agents
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby shakespeare » July 22, 2014, 5:50 pm

H20Knick wrote:
It makes a lot more sense for the Cavs.


Yep. But only because LeBron James is on board. Kevin Love, along with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving definitely makes Cavs the favorites to come out of the Eastern Conference for the next 4-5 years.

I don't think Kevin Love makes the Warriors anywhere near favorites in the Western Conference though. Like I said, I can see why GS would make this trade...but it's a lateral move, imo. Love gives pretty much what Lee and Thompson gives - scoring and rebounds. IDK, maybe it's a salary thing where the large salaries of a few players can be compacted into one player. Kevin Martin and the first round pick might even things in the long run, but for me, GS is crazy.

Bulls offer wasn't complete. I'm sure Chicago is willing to give up everything except Rose and Noah. But why weren't Chicago as willing to include Taj Gibson in any trade for Carmelo Anthony? That's strange. Bulls adamantly refused to offer Gibson. Is Kevin Love considered to be a better player than Carmelo?

H20, I don't think you can really compare these trade scenarios to Melo's trade to NY (although I see what you did there). You gotta come back after 4 years and see what becomes of the players mentioned in these trades. Fair enough?
Last edited by shakespeare on July 22, 2014, 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby shakespeare » July 22, 2014, 5:57 pm

CommonSense wrote:As far as if Kevin Love is worth it, he's never played on a contending team, but with his numbers, I'd have to believe he would make any of those team a serious contender, if not the favorite, in their respective conference.


Cavs might even win 72 games in the Eastern Conference.

LeBron is really pimping the system.

No one man should have all that power.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby cragganmor » July 22, 2014, 6:13 pm

for the bulls, is love necessary with pau aboard? i think taj is a better fit. the cavs offer seems the best, getting two #1 picks and a future 1st rounder is hard to match. gsw's offer is dampened by the size of lee's contract; too many years and dollars.

from minny's perspective, it's worth considering all 3, they're getting something back, he's not re-signing next summer.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby Nononsense » July 22, 2014, 6:43 pm

cragganmor wrote:for the bulls, is love necessary with pau aboard? i think taj is a better fit. the cavs offer seems the best, getting two #1 picks and a future 1st rounder is hard to match. gsw's offer is dampened by the size of lee's contract; too many years and dollars.

from minny's perspective, it's worth considering all 3, they're getting something back, he's not re-signing next summer.

Pau is better off at center at this stage in his career while Love is a stretch 4. Perfect in my opinion. But in the end, I see Chicago's offer being the weakest of the three.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby n8 the gr8 » July 22, 2014, 6:45 pm

shakespeare wrote:Yep. But only because LeBron James is on board. Kevin Love, along with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving definitely makes Cavs the favorites to come out of the Eastern Conference for the next 4-5 years.

I don't think Kevin Love makes the Warriors anywhere near favorites in the Western Conference though. Like I said, I can see why GS would make this trade...but it's a lateral move, imo. Love gives pretty much what Lee and Thompson gives - scoring and rebounds. IDK, maybe it's a salary thing where the large salaries of a few players can be compacted into one player. Kevin Martin and the first round pick might even things in the long run, but for me, GS is crazy.

Bulls offer wasn't complete. I'm sure Chicago is willing to give up everything except Rose and Noah. But why weren't Chicago as willing to include Taj Gibson in any trade for Carmelo Anthony? That's strange. Bulls adamantly refused to offer Gibson. Is Kevin Love considered to be a better player than Carmelo?

H20, I don't think you can really compare these trade scenarios to Melo's trade to NY (although I see what you did there). You gotta come back after 4 years and see what becomes of the players mentioned in these trades. Fair enough?

This is a good question, and something that occurred to me when I saw the offer as well. But I think there are too many differences in the two scenarios draw that conclusion. Gibson would've been ideal alongside Melo, not so much with Love. The Bulls really wanted to keep Melo strictly a SF.

Chicago had to make moves over the course of the offseason. Now Chicago has McDermott at SF and Gasol who would fit nicely alongside Noah and Love. Plus they had the opportunity to get Melo through free agency. And the new-look Cavs team to contend with.

Generally on Love: the Cavs offer is really the most appealing IMO. Wiggins is the one player being offered that they could rebuild their franchise around. Before these other teams got in the bidding war I was wondering if the Cavs would get Love without giving up Wiggins. I expect Minnesota is fielding some offers from more established teams that are under the radar, which is why this seems to be taking so long. Like maybe the clippers are offering Griffin, or some other scenario where a good team is offering a star in a trade they don't want to be public.

If/when Love gets traded I want to see the Knicks inquire about Rubio. Also if Minnesota accepts a deal from Golden State or Chicago I have to think they'll put the productive players that are too old to rebuild with on the block. The Knicks should look to trade some expirings to Minnesota for win-now players.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby H20Knick » July 22, 2014, 6:51 pm

Chicago also has another ulterior motive to going after Love.. Love going to Cleveland puts Love on a division rival. It's in Chicago's best interest to do whatever's necessary to prevent this Cleveland trio of doom from happening
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby Mr3037 » July 22, 2014, 7:09 pm

Man I can't chose between GSW & Cleveland...

Wiggins could very well be the best player through out all of the proposals, including Love given time. But Bennett is going to be nothing more than a bust-o-rama for the rest of his career & Cavs 2015 pick won't be that good.

Thompson & Lee are 2 ready made stars but neither will be superstars.

Ok if I am Minny I send Love to the Cavs - For the sole reason that Wiggins has the potential to be their next franchise player & none of the other guys from GSW or CHI have that kinda potential
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby Nononsense » July 22, 2014, 9:43 pm

If I'm Minny, I send Love to the Cavs for Wiggins AND to avoid dealing him to a conference rival.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby StevoStarks » July 22, 2014, 10:04 pm

Nononsense wrote:If I'm Minny, I send Love to the Cavs for Wiggins AND to avoid dealing him to a conference rival.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby KnicksRUs » July 23, 2014, 2:38 am

If I'm CHI/CLE I'm saying fuck Kevin Love and rolling with my young guns
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby washingtonparkjones » July 24, 2014, 1:20 pm

Gotta go with the Cavs offer.

If you are small market like Minnesota, your only move is gambling on young talent. The only way any small market team did anything ever was by bringing up their own talent and convincing them to re-sign after their rookie contracts are up. Their is no "building" in Minnesota. Its fucking cold and there's nothing there to do.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby taowave » July 24, 2014, 1:47 pm

Park are you thinking Wiggins will be a stud,or Bennett can actually play,or both??
You know the pick they throw in will be mid 20's..

McDermott,Gibson, and Mirotic is intetresting as well..
Mirotic would have likely gone 5-8 in the draft,and McDermott looked really good in summer league..



washingtonparkjones wrote:Gotta go with the Cavs offer.

If you are small market like Minnesota, your only move is gambling on young talent. The only way any small market team did anything ever was by bringing up their own talent and convincing them to re-sign after their rookie contracts are up. Their is no "building" in Minnesota. Its fucking cold and there's nothing there to do.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby washingtonparkjones » July 24, 2014, 4:27 pm

taowave wrote:Park are you thinking Wiggins will be a stud,or Bennett can actually play,or both??
You know the pick they throw in will be mid 20's..

No. I'm just thinking that they are the only players in any deal being offered that have a chance to become superstars. Just saying you have to take the gamble on franchise lvl talent, even if odds of production are lower.

GSWs deal includes players that are the least amount of gamble. They would all be solid, but no franchise caliber talent.

Bulls package include one solid guy and prospects who have high chance to be good or even really good, but again, no franchise lvl talent.

For the T'wolves, "good" is nowhere. Recipe for mediocre and a high loto pick. Big market teams can build off that; small market can't attract the FAs. They're better off gambling on Wiggins/Bennet b/c if they are a bust, at least you get a shot at the next #1 pick.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby DrJ6 » July 24, 2014, 5:21 pm

washingtonparkjones wrote:For the T'wolves, "good" is nowhere. Recipe for mediocre and a high loto pick. Big market teams can build off that; small market can't attract the FAs. They're better off gambling on Wiggins/Bennet b/c if they are a bust, at least you get a shot at the next #1 pick.

I am with WPJ on this.
Before this year's draft, heralded as one of the strongest recently, I had an impression that teams (or their fans...) were willing to give players of Melo's caliber for the top pick.
So why wouldn't Wolves exchange disgruntled Love for Wiggins now with Bennett and a pick in the next draft added as sweeteners (even if they are not considered as valuable right now)?
I do not get it. Sounds like a dream scenario.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby shakespeare » November 18, 2014, 2:42 am

Minnesota sucks. I just thought about it. They declined the offer of Taj Gibson and Jimmy Butler in exchange for Kevin Love. Are you kidding me? Both players play on both ends of the court at significant levels (old school style of play). Both are young, but somewhat seasoned NBA caliber starters. Butler has improved his offensive game this season to go along with his ALL-NBA defense. If Chicago doesn't resign this guy, PLEASE let New York get him. Give me Butler and Paul Millsap to go along with Carmelo and I'm satisfied.

And, although I do believe Wiggins will one day become an All-Star, what are the chances he stays in Minnesota?

I honestly don't think the trade was about talent as much as it was about being cheap.
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Re: Can we have a serious discussion about Kevin Love?

Postby Don Che » November 18, 2014, 8:16 am

I think its just all a part of the scheme of doing w/e Lebron and the NBA wants.

Personally....the Cavs had the worse trade on that list IMO maybe the flash of number 1 picks entice some but not me and I assume not GM's.

Wiggins is good but for the next couple seasons Taj and Butler will win you more games then he will with Bennet.

Also with the team already in place they could of used Klay Thompson who is top 10 at his position right now whos also in his mid 20's.

For team identity...Bulls give them that....For best overall player...GSW give you that for the biggest news flash on ESPN...and keeping Lebron's panties moist..the Cavs gave that.

and after it all....Minny is still the idiots here until 2019 when Wiggins is puttin in WORK on the NBA.
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