Better of the deal? The Knicks re having the worst year in franchise history....Don Che wrote:Yeh would of helped but looking at that trade now..we def got the better of the deal...we could of washed ALL of our mistakes if we amnestied Amar'e instead of Billups tho. But I get why we didnt.
combo of not amnestying Amare(solely for injury reasons) and taking SSOL OVER Thibs is the reason we suck this split second.
Ah well..we have Phil. So I'm good wit it.
WCS
Moderators: wallace044, rtn393, Irv
- Me being the resident optimist around this cesspool of doom and gloom, StevoStarks, circa 2019
Oh, I think I missed that strategy at the time. the idea was to make the Melo trade so we could get so bad that we would be able to rebuild through the draftBXGuy wrote:
which may lead us to getting Town, Okafor, Russell or Mudiay.
sorry for the sarcasm, I know you really like Melo. It's really not about Melo and I agree with what you said earlier....it would ahve been much better if we had just signed Melo during the off-season.
Up to this point in time, there just is not any way that this trade can be looked at as a positive. It is almost silly that this even needs to be said.
- Me being the resident optimist around this cesspool of doom and gloom, StevoStarks, circa 2019
You can't with without drafting a prominent player on your team.
....this is the time.
If it wasnt now it would be later. Everyone talks all that smack but ive been dreaming of this since 2005.
This was inevitable.
We were supposed to do this 10 years ago but Zeke traded for Curry and won 20 or so games back to back...those picks were supposed to be our building..but we tried to by pass that. No shortcuts..lose your games...scout well..build it properly.
....this is the time.
If it wasnt now it would be later. Everyone talks all that smack but ive been dreaming of this since 2005.
This was inevitable.
We were supposed to do this 10 years ago but Zeke traded for Curry and won 20 or so games back to back...those picks were supposed to be our building..but we tried to by pass that. No shortcuts..lose your games...scout well..build it properly.
Melo played the shit out of us and left us no room for error.
Compare that with what Miami gave up for Bron and Bosh.
Best case scenario, the Melo trade was a push....
Oh, I think I missed that strategy at the time. the idea was to make the Melo trade so we could get so bad that we would be able to rebuild through the draft
sorry for the sarcasm, I know you really like Melo. It's really not about Melo and I agree with what you said earlier....it would ahve been much better if we had just signed Melo during the off-season.
Up to this point in time, there just is not any way that this trade can be looked at as a positive. It is almost silly that this even needs to be said.[/quote]
Compare that with what Miami gave up for Bron and Bosh.
Best case scenario, the Melo trade was a push....
Oh, I think I missed that strategy at the time. the idea was to make the Melo trade so we could get so bad that we would be able to rebuild through the draft
sorry for the sarcasm, I know you really like Melo. It's really not about Melo and I agree with what you said earlier....it would ahve been much better if we had just signed Melo during the off-season.
Up to this point in time, there just is not any way that this trade can be looked at as a positive. It is almost silly that this even needs to be said.[/quote]
[Melo played the shit out of us and left us no room for error.
Compare that with what Miami gave up for Bron and Bosh.
Best case scenario, the Melo trade was a push....
Oh, I think I missed that strategy at the time. the idea was to make the Melo trade so we could get so bad that we would be able to rebuild through the draft
sorry for the sarcasm, I know you really like Melo. It's really not about Melo and I agree with what you said earlier....it would ahve been much better if we had just signed Melo during the off-season.
Up to this point in time, there just is not any way that this trade can be looked at as a positive. It is almost silly that this even needs to be said.
Compare that with what Miami gave up for Bron and Bosh.
Best case scenario, the Melo trade was a push....
Oh, I think I missed that strategy at the time. the idea was to make the Melo trade so we could get so bad that we would be able to rebuild through the draft
sorry for the sarcasm, I know you really like Melo. It's really not about Melo and I agree with what you said earlier....it would ahve been much better if we had just signed Melo during the off-season.
Up to this point in time, there just is not any way that this trade can be looked at as a positive. It is almost silly that this even needs to be said.
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nazrmohamed
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You guys are so lucky my phone is about to die. But I'll see you when I get home.
6bodies vs 6 bodies- lack of depth argument....muted
Getting the best TWO. Not one but TWO players in the deal-pure talent argument......destroyed
Everything beyond that point or up until that point were typical knick mistakes that had they not been done could've had Melo in the finals. Besides what you got during that time was three playoff appearances with one resulting in a top 2 seeding. Do even while failing hes provided us with something we haven't had for a decade. We are where we are by design. Simple and plain.
One could even say that had Phil just plugged in areas we needed we could've been right back where we were two years ago. He rather tank. I'm not mad at him for tanking, just feel it shouldn't be part of Melos record in terms of his ability to guide a team.
6bodies vs 6 bodies- lack of depth argument....muted
Getting the best TWO. Not one but TWO players in the deal-pure talent argument......destroyed
Everything beyond that point or up until that point were typical knick mistakes that had they not been done could've had Melo in the finals. Besides what you got during that time was three playoff appearances with one resulting in a top 2 seeding. Do even while failing hes provided us with something we haven't had for a decade. We are where we are by design. Simple and plain.
One could even say that had Phil just plugged in areas we needed we could've been right back where we were two years ago. He rather tank. I'm not mad at him for tanking, just feel it shouldn't be part of Melos record in terms of his ability to guide a team.
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cragganmor
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how about longevity, the lasting effect of that deal?
of the 6 that we got back, how many are still in the league? only melo and brewer. if you go back 2 years ago, add in billups, but chauncey was a shell of his former self, beset by injuries. how many of the 6 that denver got are still in the league? moz, gallo, chandler, even koufos and felton are still in the league. with the 2014 1st rounder we surrendered, they got nurkic, one of the best emerging talents at the 5. we sent them the #38 pick that we got in the david lee s&t to gsw in 2012; the #39 pick was khris middleton, he'd be a nice talent to have on the squad. and of course, we are slated to give up next year's 1st round pick as well.
looking 4 years down the road, that trade crippled us in a strategic sense; in the long view of things it really dug a hole we have yet to climb out of.
of the 6 that we got back, how many are still in the league? only melo and brewer. if you go back 2 years ago, add in billups, but chauncey was a shell of his former self, beset by injuries. how many of the 6 that denver got are still in the league? moz, gallo, chandler, even koufos and felton are still in the league. with the 2014 1st rounder we surrendered, they got nurkic, one of the best emerging talents at the 5. we sent them the #38 pick that we got in the david lee s&t to gsw in 2012; the #39 pick was khris middleton, he'd be a nice talent to have on the squad. and of course, we are slated to give up next year's 1st round pick as well.
looking 4 years down the road, that trade crippled us in a strategic sense; in the long view of things it really dug a hole we have yet to climb out of.
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big_j_NY
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Well what lead us to get into a Carmelo trade, cragg?cragganmor wrote:how about longevity, the lasting effect of that deal?
of the 6 that we got back, how many are still in the league? only melo and brewer. if you go back 2 years ago, add in billups, but chauncey was a shell of his former self, beset by injuries. how many of the 6 that denver got are still in the league? moz, gallo, chandler, even koufos and felton are still in the league. with the 2014 1st rounder we surrendered, they got nurkic, one of the best emerging talents at the 5. we sent them the #38 pick that we got in the david lee s&t to gsw in 2012; the #39 pick was khris middleton, he'd be a nice talent to have on the squad. and of course, we are slated to give up next year's 1st round pick as well.
looking 4 years down the road, that trade crippled us in a strategic sense; in the long view of things it really dug a hole we have yet to climb out of.
If you remember, the team was on a downward slope in the W-L column back to the draft lottery with a $100M injury-prone star big man in Amare on the roster. There was no way people AND team management were going to accept ANOTHER TANKING LOTTERY SEASON following the big 2010 FA sweepstakes where our consolation prize was Amare Stoudemire.
I say the Carmelo trade probably wouldn't have happened, if Masai Ujiri had re-tracked his "ultimatum" to Carmelo about signing an extension AND/OR Walsh allowed us to do one more year of tanking to put us in position for Kyrie Irving in the 2011 draft AND let Amare stay in Phoenix.
But that is water under the bridge already, it happened.
Fact of the matter is, the Carmelo trade was going to happen SINCE the Nuggets front office was not going to let Carmelo finish the last year of his contract in Denver and were planning to trade him to the Nets instead AND Knicks team management invested so much (draft picks) effort into the 2010 FA that they weren't going to accept being a "one-star" treadmill team.
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cragganmor
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we could have waited until the summer, played out the season with that core and we were likely to make the playoffs, in a more favorable spot. we could have put together better deals to build around melo and stat. melo wasn't going anywhere but ny that summer, even if the nuggs did a fire sale just to get any value. all those possibilities ended when dolan panicked and caved in to ujiri's demands. i don't blame melo; he was trying to get the best deal. dolan is the villain that mortgaged the immediate and long-term future, but then again, he didn't study finance, now did he? he was managing a sports radio station when his dad suddenly promoted him to ceo. just a dumbass making a dumbass decision; he never built anything, so he doesn't understand the cost or value, it was all given to him.
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big_j_NY
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I wasn't buying that, especially with the Nets' upcoming move to Brooklyn at the time too. And trust me, that Russian mafia head was more than willing throw additional draft picks (which have now been used for both KG and Pierce for last year) to give Ujiri what he wanted.cragganmor wrote:we could have waited until the summer, played out the season with that core and we were likely to make the playoffs, in a more favorable spot. we could have put together better deals to build around melo and stat. melo wasn't going anywhere but ny that summer, even if the nuggs did a fire sale just to get any value. all those possibilities ended when dolan panicked and caved in to ujiri's demands. i don't blame melo; he was trying to get the best deal. dolan is the villain that mortgaged the immediate and long-term future, but then again, he didn't study finance, now did he? he was managing a sports radio station when his dad suddenly promoted him to ceo. just a dumbass making a dumbass decision; he never built anything, so he doesn't understand the cost or value, it was all given to him.
And believe me, I wouldn't been ok with Carmelo going to "Brooklyn" and us being stuck with a $100M rehab player for 5 years like we have been with no stable star player. Plus, Felton at that time prior to the Melo trade was already showing signs of becoming an absolute shitty PG with his ever declining play........which we all ended up seeing coming to a climax last season when his shitty inconsistencies costed us a playoff spot last year.
I agree with you cragg, but the grave was already dug when Donnie Walsh opted to give Amare's uninsured knees $100M for over 5 years in the summer of 2010 INSTEAD of going for another lottery tank with the current core in-tact. And considering Amare's success was heavily dependent on the abilities of the PG he played with, that team was pretty much bound to be the 10th seed in the East (lottery-bound).
If you thought Knicks fans are impatient this year with an injured Carmelo doing a "re-tool" for this year's lottery, Knicks fans would've rioted knowing that they spent the first 3-4 years of the Donnie Walsh/Mike D'Antoni era losing out on Lebron and heading to the lottery AGAIN with an overpaid injury-prone Amare.
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nazrmohamed
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Point is there is no combination of scenarios that would've had the Knicks better than the second seed in the East while Amare got paid 20 mil to pour wine on his nuts. To become a new age Israelite. To pose naked for espn articles and that's what I'm talking about.
Every trade for every superstar includes 2 draft picks. They all include young talent. The Cavs gave up way more in terms of value for Love than we gave up for Melo. The difference is that Love didn't show up to an oft injured team that makes dumb decisions.
If he did perhaps Cavs fans would constantly harp on his trade as if it's the thing that four years from now keeps them out of the playoffs and not the fact that perhaps LeBron has a career ending injury, or they traded guys who helped them be so good for that years equivalent of Bargnani.
My point is so much has been mismanaged prior to and after that trade yet we still talk about that trade as if we didn't get again, 6 bodies, 2 of which were the best players in the entire trade and hey, wanna add Corey Brewer? Let's add him too. People forget two of our 6 bodies was useless Eddie Curry and that 6'9 lsu alum(forget his name but he sucked )
Fact is we amnestied the wrong player
Traded for the wrong help (Bargnani)
And when about 33 mil of your roster.....ANY ROSTER is sitting on your bench in a suit it's just hard to sustain success.
The fact that we had even the success we had to me is a Damn miracle and based on that I actually feel Carmelo is an overachiever.
Westbrook gets more credit this year for what he's done and truth is even with all the injuries the Thunder have had they STILL got more talent to work with and Melo put up a better record. This is what I've been watching folks. I don't know what you've been watching. Melo had done more with less that just about any star I know and eventually it crumbled. Too bad. And it was totally avoidable in my opinion.
Every trade for every superstar includes 2 draft picks. They all include young talent. The Cavs gave up way more in terms of value for Love than we gave up for Melo. The difference is that Love didn't show up to an oft injured team that makes dumb decisions.
If he did perhaps Cavs fans would constantly harp on his trade as if it's the thing that four years from now keeps them out of the playoffs and not the fact that perhaps LeBron has a career ending injury, or they traded guys who helped them be so good for that years equivalent of Bargnani.
My point is so much has been mismanaged prior to and after that trade yet we still talk about that trade as if we didn't get again, 6 bodies, 2 of which were the best players in the entire trade and hey, wanna add Corey Brewer? Let's add him too. People forget two of our 6 bodies was useless Eddie Curry and that 6'9 lsu alum(forget his name but he sucked )
Fact is we amnestied the wrong player
Traded for the wrong help (Bargnani)
And when about 33 mil of your roster.....ANY ROSTER is sitting on your bench in a suit it's just hard to sustain success.
The fact that we had even the success we had to me is a Damn miracle and based on that I actually feel Carmelo is an overachiever.
Westbrook gets more credit this year for what he's done and truth is even with all the injuries the Thunder have had they STILL got more talent to work with and Melo put up a better record. This is what I've been watching folks. I don't know what you've been watching. Melo had done more with less that just about any star I know and eventually it crumbled. Too bad. And it was totally avoidable in my opinion.
I dont know which is dumber...trading for Melo or Signing Amare.
Just hope us signing Melo for 5 years wasnt a mistake. Cuz IF we had a chance at Butler/Mirotic/pick for him this offseason..I'd be furious. Since I'm not 100% sure that was the case..we made the best deal.
And IF the cap goes upas much as we hope...we locked up a top 10 player for nothing...which leaves us with room to build a team.
Back on topic tho..if we had a young scorer(25 and younger) WCS would be a great pick. As cragg mentioned I like Khris Middleton a lot..not sure of his ceiling but if Phil thinks he can score 20ppg or Jimmy comes in dropping 20ppg
Willie would do wonders for us..id consider pairing him with Monroe but what is the difference btwn that and his front court player now in Drummond who is on another level as WCS is.
Just hope us signing Melo for 5 years wasnt a mistake. Cuz IF we had a chance at Butler/Mirotic/pick for him this offseason..I'd be furious. Since I'm not 100% sure that was the case..we made the best deal.
And IF the cap goes upas much as we hope...we locked up a top 10 player for nothing...which leaves us with room to build a team.
Back on topic tho..if we had a young scorer(25 and younger) WCS would be a great pick. As cragg mentioned I like Khris Middleton a lot..not sure of his ceiling but if Phil thinks he can score 20ppg or Jimmy comes in dropping 20ppg
Willie would do wonders for us..id consider pairing him with Monroe but what is the difference btwn that and his front court player now in Drummond who is on another level as WCS is.
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nazrmohamed
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^^^^^ the triangle vs a system that never really had room for two twin tower like bigs. People forget that SVG is the coach that had Richard Lewis at PF. Not to mention that prior to SVG they did have success as a pairing with three outside shooters......then they decided Josh Smith was a good pickup. They then had success once they waived him only to do another trade for Jackson who can't shoot.
Point is there's been allot of turnover and gimmicks done by Detroit over the last four years. If Monroe were a 10 yr vet you say good players figure it out but that's why people gotta really focus on the age of this guy.
He's 24 yrs old and has had five coaches already. Any flaws at his age under those circumstances are totally understandable. I mean they're are some that I'm not sure he can fix such as speed and athleticism but he's highly skilled, is a pretty smart player and is gonna make a great second option in my opinion
Point is there's been allot of turnover and gimmicks done by Detroit over the last four years. If Monroe were a 10 yr vet you say good players figure it out but that's why people gotta really focus on the age of this guy.
He's 24 yrs old and has had five coaches already. Any flaws at his age under those circumstances are totally understandable. I mean they're are some that I'm not sure he can fix such as speed and athleticism but he's highly skilled, is a pretty smart player and is gonna make a great second option in my opinion
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KnicksFanInSouthFL
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The better DeAndre Jordan performs during the playoffs the higher WCS stock rises...
I know there isn't a connections between them but I believe Jordan's offense is far worse than WCS, yet he still dominates the game with his rebouding and defense. All of which bodes well for any GM making a case for drafting Willie. Him going in the top 4 wouldn't surprise me.
I know there isn't a connections between them but I believe Jordan's offense is far worse than WCS, yet he still dominates the game with his rebouding and defense. All of which bodes well for any GM making a case for drafting Willie. Him going in the top 4 wouldn't surprise me.
Is Melo-God Zen-o-phobic?
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DolanCurse2001
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For once we agree. There is nothing wrong with taking DeAndre Jordan/Joakim Noah/Tyson Chandler type of C as the 4th pick. And if we are strongly considering Moose like the rumors say, WCS is PERFECT next to him.KnicksFanInSouthFL wrote:The better DeAndre Jordan performs during the playoffs the higher WCS stock rises...
I know there isn't a connections between them but I believe Jordan's offense is far worse than WCS, yet he still dominates the game with his rebouding and defense. All of which bodes well for any GM making a case for drafting Willie. Him going in the top 4 wouldn't surprise me.
WCS will go top 5 I think but...DeAndre Jordan is on another level rebounding wise and I dont see WCS ever being as imposing physically as DJ is right now.
his body type is more like Jared Jeffries(just a more athletic but less offense at this stage) then DeAndre Jordan. His versatility is his biggest asset...not dominance of the paint and he's yet to maximize on the boards..but he can if he focused.
his body type is more like Jared Jeffries(just a more athletic but less offense at this stage) then DeAndre Jordan. His versatility is his biggest asset...not dominance of the paint and he's yet to maximize on the boards..but he can if he focused.
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KnicksFanInSouthFL
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I wouldn't say all that... DJ was skinny fat when he was drafted and has developed his frame over the years. He just recently became the physically dominant center he is today during the last two seasons despite this already being his 6th season in the NBA. And I credit most of it to playing with CP3, who not only creates easy scoring opportunities for him but also helps him out defensively simply by being a smart and willing defender at the PG position. The CP3 Effect is real and helped raise the values for Tyson Chandler and Emeka Okafor, too. And the right PG will bring the best outta WCS.Don Che wrote:WCS will go top 5 I think but...DeAndre Jordan is on another level rebounding wise and I dont see WCS ever being as imposing physically as DJ is right now.
his body type is more like Jared Jeffries(just a more athletic but less offense at this stage) then DeAndre Jordan. His versatility is his biggest asset...not dominance of the paint and he's yet to maximize on the boards..but he can if he focused.
For what its worth, DJ only averaged 8 PPG, 6 RPG and 1.3 BPG during his one season at Texas A&M.
Is Melo-God Zen-o-phobic?
Yeh DJ was an underwhelming college player since he was always an idiot but he's always been incredibly athletic...he was compared to Dwight out of HS and he got drafted for the perfect team for him.
but WCS hasn't changed physically over his 3 years in KT. And while he can buff up i'd assume his PEAK is Joakim physically while being very mobile on the perimeter on defense but overall IQ and intensity/motor is what makes Noah great not his physical stature.
Again WCS will be very important if he's engaged mentally..and in his young career he decides when he wants to care but even when he's going at his best I see him doing a lot of things that aren't on stat sheets while grabbing 8-10 rebounds..but his TRUE value is the combination of blocks/steals that he will get everyday.
He wont be top 5 in any of those categories but if he reaches his potential he COULD be top 15 in Rebounds/Steals/Block shots night in night out..but we need a coach and veterans to make sure he brings it every night.
but WCS hasn't changed physically over his 3 years in KT. And while he can buff up i'd assume his PEAK is Joakim physically while being very mobile on the perimeter on defense but overall IQ and intensity/motor is what makes Noah great not his physical stature.
Again WCS will be very important if he's engaged mentally..and in his young career he decides when he wants to care but even when he's going at his best I see him doing a lot of things that aren't on stat sheets while grabbing 8-10 rebounds..but his TRUE value is the combination of blocks/steals that he will get everyday.
He wont be top 5 in any of those categories but if he reaches his potential he COULD be top 15 in Rebounds/Steals/Block shots night in night out..but we need a coach and veterans to make sure he brings it every night.
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KnicksFanInSouthFL
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Link...
Roc Nation announced Friday that Kentucky star Willie Cauley-Stein is the latest athlete to join its growing list of high-profile sports clients.
... Cauley-Stein joins a Roc Nation Sports group that also includes Kevin Durant, Dez Bryant and Robinson Cano, among others from across the sports spectrum. The company is owned by entertainment maven Jay Z.
Is Melo-God Zen-o-phobic?