Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby N8theGR8 » September 26, 2018, 6:44 pm

Anyone interested in officially eliminating the name "Jimmy Butler" from all Knicks-related talk until 2019 free agency? At this point, it is about 99% unlikely he will ever end up in NY (via trade or FA). I don't even see Irving coming here at this point.

Let's just focus on landing Durant 100% - Durant or bust.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby nazrmohamed » September 26, 2018, 7:06 pm

Red wrote:Only in the Knick's universe do fans complain about Kyrie Irving; compare and consider Terry Rozier and Frank Ntilikina better options.

I'm almost considering wearing a paper bag on my head when I'm at the garden. It's embarrassing.


And only in a Knicks universe does a fanbase fawn over expensive oftinjured stars who dont play any defense.

Forget its Kyrie and these are things I've actually read you bitch about. Follow your own advice. That ain't a dig. I'm actually asking you to think on that.

If it's expensive, is constantly injured and doesnt play defense you won't enjoy that players time here.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby taowave » September 26, 2018, 7:43 pm

Red,read up on Kyrie's knee condition.He has yet to play a full season,and at this point it's ill advised for him to do so..

Not bashing him,but KP is coming off ACL surgery and likely looking at a max contract. Let's see how Kyrie holds up this year.Givrn the choice,Durant is my number 1.

Red wrote:Only in the Knick's universe do fans complain about Kyrie Irving; compare and consider Terry Rozier and Frank Ntilikina better options.

I'm almost considering wearing a paper bag on my head when I'm at the garden. It's embarrassing.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Red » September 26, 2018, 8:31 pm

nazrmohamed wrote:
And only in a Knicks universe does a fanbase fawn over expensive oftinjured stars who dont play any defense.

Forget its Kyrie and these are things I've actually read you bitch about. Follow your own advice. That ain't a dig. I'm actually asking you to think on that.

If it's expensive, is constantly injured and doesnt play defense you won't enjoy that players time here.


"Complain" was in reference to his skill set. I don't understand this all or nothing view. It's audacious imo. An upgrade is an upgrade is an upgrade. Kyrie is an upgrade no? A means to an end?

The oftinjuerd expensive player you speak of could easily be KP as Tao eludes to.

If we're ranking the importance of all positions relative to wins where would you put the pg position? It's #1 imo. I don't know of any better available.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby gradyandrew » September 27, 2018, 3:15 am

Red wrote:Only in the Knick's universe do fans complain about Kyrie Irving; compare and consider Terry Rozier and Frank Ntilikina better options.

I'm almost considering wearing a paper bag on my head when I'm at the garden. It's embarrassing.


Terry is younger, plays great defense, was a beast in the playoffs, too good to be a backup, whats not to like?
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Red » September 27, 2018, 6:58 am

gradyandrew wrote:Terry is younger, plays great defense, was a beast in the playoffs, too good to be a backup, whats not to like?


Nothing I just don't understand how a fan of a losing franchise scoffs at Irving, his accomplishments, and skill set as if.

You don't want Kyrie, you don't want Jimmy, then you don't want the best available upgrade. Cool, but don't try and bash and diminish them as if they're not worthy.

I think Knick fans look stupid doing that. Ask a Knick fan who's worthy of a max contract and instead of the 5 time allatar, NBA champion they'd rather a homegrown Kristaps Porzingis which is ironic because most of those fans hate Phil Jackson.

But how many KP'S have we drafted? So really those same Knick fans believe we can compete for a chip with no max contract players. Smh.

It's simple... you have to pay to play. Scared money don't make money. Good teams take calculated risks bc all moves are a risk. When you're a shitty franchise and a top rated pg sends signals of interest you do that same thing as with KP... you jump on it and take the risk.

What not to do: act like you're too good or too smart to accept a top rate player and the risk involved.

Kyrie is KP. A necessary risk.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Championship 16/17 » September 27, 2018, 11:12 am

Red wrote:
Nothing I just don't understand how a fan of a losing franchise scoffs at Irving, his accomplishments, and skill set as if.

You don't want Kyrie, you don't want Jimmy, then you don't want the best available upgrade. Cool, but don't try and bash and diminish them as if they're not worthy.

I think Knick fans look stupid doing that. Ask a Knick fan who's worthy of a max contract and instead of the 5 time allatar, NBA champion they'd rather a homegrown Kristaps Porzingis which is ironic because most of those fans hate Phil Jackson.

But how many KP'S have we drafted? So really those same Knick fans believe we can compete for a chip with no max contract players. Smh.

It's simple... you have to pay to play. Scared money don't make money. Good teams take calculated risks bc all moves are a risk. When you're a shitty franchise and a top rated pg sends signals of interest you do that same thing as with KP... you jump on it and take the risk.

What not to do: act like you're too good or too smart to accept a top rate player and the risk involved.

Kyrie is KP. A necessary risk.


:clap:
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Championship 16/17 » September 27, 2018, 11:13 am

Red wrote:Only in the Knick's universe do fans complain about Kyrie Irving; compare and consider Terry Rozier and Frank Ntilikina better options.

I'm almost considering wearing a paper bag on my head when I'm at the garden. It's embarrassing.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

.....and I'm probably Franks biggest fan, but if you get Irving the bench he goes. Terry Rosier doesn't fit this team, I rather keep Frank over Rozier and his big contract.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Don Che » September 27, 2018, 12:37 pm

https://dailyknicks.com/2018/09/26/new- ... rsuit-now/

not happening


and I dont think kyrie wins anything here...hes in the perfect situation for himself now aka the main ball handler on a stacked team that would win without him.

we aren't that....when we throw max money we need a legit top 5 player to sign it.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby taowave » September 27, 2018, 1:02 pm

Red,I love Kyrie,and if he didn't have a knee condition,I wouldn't blink signing him to a max.

Other than his one condition,I would really like to see how Mudiay,Frank and Burke play out..

Granted, Mudiay has shown zero,Frank pissed his pants crossing half court and Burke could be a one hit wonder..

My question to you is if Burke puts up 18 and 8,or if Frank puts up 10 and 7 with great D,do you take a time out and reconsider maxing a PG?
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Red » September 27, 2018, 4:29 pm

Ok I see where you're going with this Tao. You're one of the ones who want to build something organic. Draft every championship player if you get there and only sleeper, dark-horse, reclamation projects are considered. I get it.

Focusing on Burke... I'd say first if he did put up 18 and 8 he would basically be doubling his career avg. What are the odds of that?

Also, I'd say based on your question that currently Burke is not enough. You'd only consider him as a starter (I assume) if he could double his output.

And I'd ask what do you think Burke or anyone can show you that they couldn't over 82 games? Basically what I'm saying is from the jump you never questioned Kyrie; you knew he had what it took from day 1 (or whenever he actually suited up) but with our dudes you want to believe and propose making a decision on them hypothetically taking a quantum leap.

That says something in and of itself. My question to you is this....

Would you rather win with a bonafide star who's already established or lose with a homegrown team?

If Burke or Mudiay had those skills don't you think you would've seen it by now? They don't so you want to hold out hope and give them every benefit of the doubt.

You're probably thinking Fiz can make them better. And that may be true but Kyrie better? Probably not.

You're probably thinking the same ole.. if we surround player x with certain types then player x can flourish. But with a Kyrie the skills are present no matter who you surround him with.

So I don't see how a fan of this franchise gets more satisfaction with homegrown talent than without because I'm about the results. I care not who provides them.

By strictly adhering to this we need homegrown Knicks to be satisfied we may be squandering available opportunities. Mediocre players mean mediocre results.

Those players you're hoping to shine are at best mediocre. Have you ever described Kyrie as mediocre, bad defense and all?

*waits for you to shift your concern to health and not skills. I know Tao, but his knee, his ankle, the minutes he's logged, etc...

Don't bother, I'm aware. So let me say "if he's healthy" you can't name a better option and if you could I'm all ears.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby nazrmohamed » September 27, 2018, 5:13 pm

1-If Burke can double his production
If Kyrie stayed healthy
In both cases I see an if. You cant say Kyrie without injury. It's been the story of his career. He's literally always injured. We're not talking about fear of a guy who got hurt last year and will he come back. We're talking about a player you must assume will not play for most likely 30 games each season and in most cases at a time where he could justify what will most likely be one of the most expensive contracts in the league. Its not this minor thing. You don't get to check in some "I already know" statement at the end of a long post and make us ignore it. One could write a whole thesis on sports injury and then slip in "we know he's a good player" with his injury history.

2- I don't care about Burke. He's 25 on a bad team. He's a backup PG. Don't argue, I just know it so I'm on your side with that one.

3- So naturally its no secret that I'm fully committed to Ntilikina. And in reality I WOULD simply slide him over for Kyrie and hope he can then rival guys like Avery Bradley and Tony Allen. I won't sit here and assume he'll ever be as talented as Kyrie, that's just foolish. Where I'd spend my time arguing, and I do with H20 all the time, is that I'm not as married as you two to the idea that PG needs to be your team's best position. I believe I can build just a good backcourt with a prime Ntilikina and a top 5 SG, than one could with Kyrie and Tin Hardaway Jr

You see even on his own tragectory I expect Frank to be a top 3 defensive guard over time (assuming he gains no additional skillsets but gains the iq and physical strength to perfect what he does now). And I'm gonna go and assume he picks other skills up. There'll be more James Hardens just as there've been other Kyries. I see no need to rush it. I expect to draft one this year.

Now you're right, no team fully drafts thier title. Harrison Barnes isn't a Warrior and Iguodalla is. But even that's a good example as the FA in this case is a role player. But thier core was drafted. But even so, let's say the guy to lead this team must be signed. Kyrie and Butler aren't the last FAs on earth and I dont even know that they can win big like that.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby Red » September 27, 2018, 5:44 pm

Ok so now we're comparing Kyrie Irving to Frank Ntilikina?
Wow ok..

So in fairness we sgould compare Frank now to Kyrie then because overall there is no comparison.

You see in Frank now what you saw in Kyrie then? Not even close.

I'll give Frank the defensive specialist tag but where is the defensive specialist pg in the finals?


Then this sg argument. That shit is more unbelievable than any argument of Burke being a starter or Kyrie stayimg healthy.

Frank has shown nowhere near the shooting skill necessary. I meam Kyrie is a better sg than Frank will probably ever be so if you insist on shifting players out of their natural position then Kyrie is better there too.

Look I know what you guys want but people in hell want ice water. You can't make a player out to be what he's not. Frank at SG (with THJ nonetheless) isn't a better idea than Kyrie max at the 1. All it does is invite more wait and see arguments while he learns a new position.

I'm disappointed in the fact that you guys don't seem to recognize or appreciate real high bb IQ.

When the main player knows where to go amd what to do with the ball everyone benefits. So you'd have a better chance at the Nitti and Burkes becoming more than what they are (mediocre) with Kyrie than without.

Why are we discussing this? Kyrie is better. Period.

Now if you want to go the "is he worth the max due to injury" route then you've just cornered yourself with KP and Kyrie's resume is 10x's better. So I expect to see you debating about whether or not KP should play and is he worth the max.

You sign kyrie and he instantly becomes our best player. And now you get cold feet? Nah to me that's foolosh pride and bias not objectivity.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby nazrmohamed » September 27, 2018, 6:10 pm

Red wrote:Ok so now we're comparing Kyrie Irving to Frank Ntilikina?
Wow ok..

So in fairness we sgould compare Frank now to Kyrie then because overall there is no comparison.

You see in Frank now what you saw in Kyrie then? Not even close.

I'll give Frank the defensive specialist tag but where is the defensive specialist pg in the finals?


Then this sg argument. That shit is more unbelievable than any argument of Burke being a starter or Kyrie stayimg healthy.

Frank has shown nowhere near the shooting skill necessary. I meam Kyrie is a better sg than Frank will probably ever be so if you insist on shifting players out of their natural position then Kyrie is better there too.

Look I know what you guys want but people in hell want ice water. You can't make a player out to be what he's not. Frank at SG (with THJ nonetheless) isn't a better idea than Kyrie max at the 1. All it does is invite more wait and see arguments while he learns a new position.

I'm disappointed in the fact that you guys don't seem to recognize or appreciate real high bb IQ.

When the main player knows where to go amd what to do with the ball everyone benefits. So you'd have a better chance at the Nitti and Burkes becoming more than what they are (mediocre) with Kyrie than without.

Why are we discussing this? Kyrie is better. Period.

Now if you want to go the "is he worth the max due to injury" route then you've just cornered yourself with KP and Kyrie's resume is 10x's better. So I expect to see you debating about whether or not KP should play and is he worth the max.

You sign kyrie and he instantly becomes our best player. And now you get cold feet? Nah to me that's foolosh pride and bias not objectivity.


Read dude. I literally said that I won't compare Frank to Kyrie because that would be foolish. I SAID, it's possible to see Frank develop as such that a combination of he and an elite SG can be better than Kyrie and a far lesser SG.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby taowave » September 27, 2018, 7:04 pm

Completely agree,but I do think Burke has 15 and 6 in him..And a somewhat efficient 15 and 6..

And he'll yeah,Kyrie is on another level.And I'm talking game changer level.Like Durant,who is my number one option,despite having Knox and hopefully KP..

I'm not the dark horse guy,I'm Kyrie,Kawaii and Durant..A healthy KP, another top pick and we should be pretty d good with a little luck.I want the assassin as a free agent..

I love Kyrie,and barring medical shit,he should be top 3 on our radar


Red wrote:Ok I see where you're going with this Tao. You're one of the ones who want to build something organic. Draft every championship player if you get there and only sleeper, dark-horse, reclamation projects are considered. I get it.

Focusing on Burke... I'd say first if he did put up 18 and 8 he would basically be doubling his career avg. What are the odds of that?

Also, I'd say based on your question that currently Burke is not enough. You'd only consider him as a starter (I assume) if he could double his output.

And I'd ask what do you think Burke or anyone can show you that they couldn't over 82 games? Basically what I'm saying is from the jump you never questioned Kyrie; you knew he had what it took from day 1 (or whenever he actually suited up) but with our dudes you want to believe and propose making a decision on them hypothetically taking a quantum leap.

That says something in and of itself. My question to you is this....

Would you rather win with a bonafide star who's already established or lose with a homegrown team?

If Burke or Mudiay had those skills don't you think you would've seen it by now? They don't so you want to hold out hope and give them every benefit of the doubt.

You're probably thinking Fiz can make them better. And that may be true but Kyrie better? Probably not.

You're probably thinking the same ole.. if we surround player x with certain types then player x can flourish. But with a Kyrie the skills are present no matter who you surround him with.

So I don't see how a fan of this franchise gets more satisfaction with homegrown talent than without because I'm about the results. I care not who provides them.

By strictly adhering to this we need homegrown Knicks to be satisfied we may be squandering available opportunities. Mediocre players mean mediocre results.

Those players you're hoping to shine are at best mediocre. Have you ever described Kyrie as mediocre, bad defense and all?

*waits for you to shift your concern to health and not skills. I know Tao, but his knee, his ankle, the minutes he's logged, etc...

Don't bother, I'm aware. So let me say "if he's healthy" you can't name a better option and if you could I'm all ears.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby rebound » September 27, 2018, 7:08 pm

health is the only concern with kyrie. he's got age on his side but another lengthy injury could negate that.
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby StevoStarks » September 27, 2018, 7:20 pm

rebound wrote:health is the only concern with kyrie. he's got age on his side but another lengthy injury could negate that.


That's it in a nutshell. Can't imagine anyone is doubting the talent. It's the longevity and him being there when we need him that makes the difference. Do you throw money at a guy that has trouble finishing seasons?
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby taowave » September 27, 2018, 7:29 pm

And the medical mandate going forward will be to rest him.No big deal,but throw in KP and his ACL,and what are the odds your 2 max guys stay healthy..
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Re: Jimmy Butler request trade (Knicks one of his preferred destinations)

Postby cragganmor » September 27, 2018, 7:53 pm

We need to establish some identity this season, build on that. Get the right fitting pieces, not the just ones with highlight reel moves, asg appearances.

Naz brought up Igoudala, a prime example; talented but not a perennial all-star. To Don's point Iggy got dog in him and that's an important part of gsw's chemistry.
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