Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

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Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Boston_PuppyDawg » July 17, 2018, 5:06 pm

Via Twitter @LegionHoopsRoss

The Knicks and Timberwolves have had preliminary trade talks centered around star smal forward Jimmy Butler.

Butler will be an unrestricted free agent next summer.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby big_j_NY » July 17, 2018, 5:12 pm

Fuck sakes, this is NOT what you're suppose to do during a rebuild..................I would've been fine if Kyrie Irving was WALKING to the Knicks via free agency next summer, NOT "pandering" to him by trading some of our young assets for an older Jimmy Butler.

Just give me my Top 3 draft pick NEXT SEASON, then convince Kyrie to walk to the Knicks next summer NO PROBLEM..........not "trade our assets" to pander to 2019 free agents once again.

Steve Mills still hasn't learned his lesson yet
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby thewatcher » July 17, 2018, 5:14 pm

Yeah this makes sense. Might be THJ and Frank. I'd have mixed feelings. Of course I'd rather it be Mudiay but thats not remotely realistic.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby rebound » July 17, 2018, 5:21 pm

This is the right move if they don't overbid.
It almost guarantees kyrie next summer and makes the knicks competitive enough to reach the ECF barring injury.

assuming thibs wants frank because he's def first and they have no pg.
dont want to give up mitchell or knox. frank would be tough to swallow.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby rebound » July 17, 2018, 5:22 pm

i want jimmy influencing knox.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby thewatcher » July 17, 2018, 5:25 pm

Thj would be part of the package imo. Im scared trading frank but who else would they want? Knox and mitch are untouchable
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby rebound » July 17, 2018, 5:27 pm

thewatcher wrote:Thj would be part of the package imo. Im scared trading frank but who else would they want? Knox and mitch are untouchable

is mitch untouchable? i can see thibs desiring him next to towns.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby thewatcher » July 17, 2018, 5:27 pm

Mitchell Robinson is definitely untouchable..l can't decide if his ceiling is KG or Bill Russell
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby thewatcher » July 17, 2018, 5:44 pm

Jeez, I would hate trading a 19 year old, but I feel the GM's won't be able to resist. If only it could be Lee, Lance and Emu lol,
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby cragganmor » July 17, 2018, 6:16 pm

Wolves have plenty of young talent. They need vet leadership. Jimmy's normal value is now lowered because he's publicly turned down an extension. Its not like they gave up the farm to get him.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Mike1989 » July 17, 2018, 6:44 pm

big_j_NY wrote:Fuck sakes, this is NOT what you're suppose to do during a rebuild..................I would've been fine if Kyrie Irving was WALKING to the Knicks via free agency next summer, NOT "pandering" to him by trading some of our young assets for an older Jimmy Butler.

Just give me my Top 3 draft pick NEXT SEASON, then convince Kyrie to walk to the Knicks next summer NO PROBLEM..........not "trade our assets" to pander to 2019 free agents once again.

Steve Mills still hasn't learned his lesson yet


First thing to consider here is that there is arguably not a transcendent talent in the 2019 NBA draft. There are some that consider it a potentially weak draft class when compared to recent drafts, and while it is early days and things can change (e.g. Michael Porter received a ton of hype this time last year only to not deliver in college whereas Trae Young was not considered a top prospect yet managed to get picked fifth overall), this is not really a year to tank and pin your hopes on landing a franchise changing talent.

Second thing to consider when wanting to tank is that the draft lottery odds have changed. The top three teams now feature the same odds for picks 1-4, however those teams have a .479 chance of picking outside the top four. The first seed can fall as low as fifth, the second seed can fall to sixth, and the third seed can fall to seventh. The fourth seed has a .481 chance of picking in the top four compared to a .518 chance of picking 5th-8th. The fifth seed has a .421 chance of picking in the top four compared to a .578 chance of picking 5th-9th. So these new odds make it difficult to justify tanking because now you are essentially betting on the flip of a coin as to whether you pick in the top four or fifth overall, and the difference between the 1st and 5th pick can be significant in some draft classes and it appears that will be the case in 2019.

The third thing you need to keep in mind before criticizing this deal is that it depends on what deal we would be giving up for Butler. The T-Wolves have little to no leverage in this deal if the rumor is true that Butler will not sign an extension with them. That means they have two choices: one, keep him and lose him for nothing next year; or two, sell him and get whatever you can in return. Now in our case we aren't going to give up the farm for Butler. It would likely be something like Tim Hardaway plus Frank Ntilikina, or Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas, plus a future protected first round pick (e.g. lottery protected in 2019, then protect it for 1-5 and 17-30 in 2020, and unprotected in 2021). The benefit of doing this deal is that as long as we get some kind of assurance that Butler will sign long term, then we will own Butler's bird rights and can go over the cap to extend him (and Porzingis) while using our cap space to sign another max level free agent in 2019. By having Butler and KP as established cornerstone caliber players, plus potentially Knox and Robinson if they make impacts as rookies, then we will be able to have a strong pitch for free agents in 2019.

Is adding someone at 28 years old a bad idea?

Not at all. What we can't afford to do is wait too long with KP and wait for a bunch of 18/9 year olds to put together their games over the next few seasons and become supporting cast members for KP. This will be KP's fourth season if he plays. So if it takes Knox a few seasons that will be KP's sixth season, and if we add someone in the 2019 draft and they take a few seasons that will be KP's seventh season. If we haven't made the play offs by that time there is a pretty good chance KP will be pushing for an exit from our team. The Sacramento Kings found a star in DeMarcus Cousins and wasted it. We have hit on a star in KP and the best thing this team can do is to try and put together a supporting cast that can help him deliver a championship to New York. He's already proved in his first three seasons in the league that he is not a durable player like Karl Anthony Towns (he's not missed a game). KP has dealt with knocks and missed games. So what we need is to have good players to support him and take pressure off him and adding Butler can do that because he is a proven all star, high caliber defender, and can average over 20 points a night. He would be a perfect co-star for KP and that's before considering what Kevin Knox can become, or Frank Ntilikina if we hold onto him, or anyone we add through free agency in 2019.

At the end of the day this team needs to be aggressive in its rebuild and not sit on its hands. We already have our young core in Frank, Knox, KP and maybe Robinson as well. We should be able to get Butler without giving one of them up, but even if we have to sacrifice Frank that is not the end of the world because he is not a true point guard and if we get Kyrie or Kemba in free agency he would have to move positions anyway, heck we can even target a veteran guy like Teague or Dragic to offer us better and more consistent point guard production. So while I agree that we shouldn't sell our main young talent or give away multiple unprotected first round picks, it does make sense for this team to try and acquire Butler as long as we get him for a fair return, and I'd say sending Hardaway or Lee/Thomas plus a future protected pick (e.g. lottery protected in 2019, then protect it for 1-5 and 17-30 in 2020, and unprotected in 2021) would be a fair return for both sides.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Koopa Troopa » July 17, 2018, 6:50 pm

We already have the poor mans Jimmy Butler in Lance Thomas. 8-)

Im not interested in trading for Butler. Hes a great player sure, but why give up assets when you can just let contracts expire and go for guys in free agency? The Knicks barely have assets to give up regardless.

Also not interested in talking about draft position either. Who cares where the Knicks fall, you gotta just make the right picks. After D. Mitchell proved to be a mega star it shows its not about where you draft but how you draft. Same story happens almost every year.

I agree that we cant wait forever to build a squad, I've said it many times, KP will bounce if the team remains horrid. But the team will remain horrid if you throw away all your assets for a guy whos a marginal all star. As great as Butler is, thats the reality in the NBA. Hes a strong player but I want franchise level talents here.
Last edited by Koopa Troopa on July 17, 2018, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Mike1989 » July 17, 2018, 6:53 pm

thewatcher wrote:Jeez, I would hate trading a 19 year old, but I feel the GM's won't be able to resist. If only it could be Lee, Lance and Emu lol,


The way I see it is that sacrificing Frank wouldn't be the end of the world because he's not a true point guard. I think some of us on here tend to feel he is better suited to playing SG and that he should be prioritizing his 3 point shooting in the hopes of becoming a high level 3 and D player. Now it would be nice for us to keep hold of him and for him to become a long term contributor for this team, however if we intend to go after Kyrie or another veteran point guard, then that does mean Frank will have to change positions if we keep him or he will be a trade commodity.

I think the T-Wolves could be tempted by a Hardaway and Frank deal, or a Lee and Frank deal. Likewise we would be tempted by that deal because we would be getting a proven all star, high level defender, and a 20 a night scorer. Butler would be the perfect co-star for KP and would be a significantly more appealing player to play with for 2019 free agents than Frank would be. It also benefits us because we would own Butler's bird rights and we can go over the cap to extend him and use cap space to sign a max level free agent.

If we ended up with Kyrie (Kemba/Teague/Dragic), Butler, Knox and KP as our main quartet. We could easily slot in Hardaway or Lee at SG and play KP as a stretch five, or alternatively we could keep hold of Kanter on a cheaper deal and play him at the five if he's developed into a stretch five, or perhaps Robinson will be ready. There are plenty of ways to go but having Butler on this team could be the start of getting this team back to where it belongs in the play offs. We need to support KP as much as possible and a proven talent like Butler is a step in the right direction.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby big_j_NY » July 17, 2018, 6:54 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:Im not interested in trading for Butler. Hes a great player sure, but why give up assets when you can just let contracts expire and go for guys in free agency? The Knicks barely have assets to give up regardless.


Wow, me and Koop have agreed yet again in terms of free agent/trade acquisitions.........especially after our nice lil debate earlier last month about it LOL

That being said............if the T-Wolves are stupid enough to accept Noah's contract AND Courtney Lee in a Jimmy Butler deal, I'll consider it.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Mike1989 » July 17, 2018, 6:57 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote:We already have the poor mans Jimmy Butler in Lance Thomas. 8-)

Im not interested in trading for Butler. Hes a great player sure, but why give up assets when you can just let contracts expire and go for guys in free agency? The Knicks barely have assets to give up regardless.

Also not interested in talking about draft position either. Who cares where the Knicks fall, you gotta just make the right picks. After D. Mitchell proved to be a mega star it shows its not about where you draft but how you draft. Same story happens almost every year.


Butler is an expiring contract and has said he won't extend with the T-Wolves. That brings his price down significantly and means we wouldn't be giving up what we did for Melo. It would likely be something like Hardaway and Frank, or Lee and Frank or Lee and Thomas plus a future protected first round pick (e.g. lottery protected in 2019, then protect it for 1-5 and 17-30 in 2020, and unprotected in 2021 or turn it into a second rounder at this point).

As for waiting to go after him in free agency, we would need to clear space to be able to afford two max level free agents in 2019. If we could acquire Butler now without giving up to much (which is possible), then we have his bird rights and can go over the cap to extend him and use cap space to sign a max level free agent. I've said it already, we need to be aggressive in this rebuild without being stupid.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby shakespeare » July 17, 2018, 7:00 pm

This is the Carmelo Anthony trade all over again:

1) Knicks should’ve made this trade years ago or before signing Melo to the super max contract
2) Butler is one of my favorite players in the league, but I’d rather a high lottery pick than a soon-to-be declining Butler
3) Butler may be searching for that super max contract that Timberwolves aren’t willing to offer?
4) We’re definitely giving up a 1st rounder in this trade
5) Ugh
Last edited by shakespeare on July 17, 2018, 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby Koopa Troopa » July 17, 2018, 7:00 pm

The real prob with Butler is he wants a giant mega contract and who here really thinks hes worth it? It would eat the cap up. At best on a championship team he is the third or 4th best player. If Im giving out max money, it aint to no Jimmy Butler, with all due respect to him.

If were trading for Butler just to make cap room then I understand that, but I would like to consult with the cap gurus if his expiring deal is worth the loss of assets. Id think probably not.

If were talking about 28 year olds I'd rather get Lillard, but again not interested in trades. 2019 in July in free agency is what I wanna see. And I want that to be a legit super star PG
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby shakespeare » July 17, 2018, 7:03 pm

Koopa Troopa wrote: This team sorely needs a true mega star point guard to play with KP and Knox.


I don’t believe it’ll take a superstar point guard. But I do believe we need some pure shooters and versatile defenders alongside Porzingis and Knox.
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby big_j_NY » July 17, 2018, 7:05 pm

In other words for #TeamRebuild, Jimmy Butler is NOT DA JUAN..................NEXT :arrow:
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Re: Jimmy Butler to Knicks talk?

Postby shakespeare » July 17, 2018, 7:05 pm

big_j_NY wrote:Fuck sakes, this is NOT what you're suppose to do during a rebuild..................
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