Knicks 2018 cap situation (including 2019 outlook)

Discuss New York Knicks news, current events, players, and history.

Moderators: wallace044, rtn393, Irv, cru77jones

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2018, 4:31 am

With the deadline in the books, I will update the first post this week. We are a little under, but our trade exceptions and first round pick get us just a little over, so that we could use the biggest MLE.

To Mudiay: the described situation above means that we could create cap room relatively easy. The big advantage why many here prefer his contract situation though is that we get more than a full year before we have to make a decision on what we are willing to invest in him, while with Payton that decision would've to come already after two months.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby dcapodic » February 19, 2018, 8:09 am

spree#8 wrote:With the deadline in the books, I will update the first post this week. We are a little under, but our trade exceptions and first round pick get us just a little over, so that we could use the biggest MLE.

To Mudiay: the described situation above means that we could create cap room relatively easy. The big advantage why many here prefer his contract situation though is that we get more than a full year before we have to make a decision on what we are willing to invest in him, while with Payton that decision would've to come already after two months.


So, the scenario is correct?

Very respectively, you are calling out someone in another thread about not being accurate or just plain old making a mistake and not owning up for it.

The big advantage why many here prefer his contract situation though is that we get more than a full year before we have to make a decision on what we are willing to invest in him, while with Payton that decision would've to come already after two months.


I get this but did not ask about it. Nor did I deal with age or ability. I strictly asked about the rules of an NBA contract. As I think you are agreeing to and I mentioned in my post, "make a decision" only comes into play if he gets offered a larger contract by another team, correct? If you are gonna mention what you did, then in fairness you should also mention that.

I get your point when you say, numbers are numbers. Mine is, facts are facts and too often people think if you just omit them and never respond to them, they just go away or that you can simply say things and if yo say them often enough, they then become facts. Very indicative of our society these days, but I digress.

Thanks for your help! I really didn't want to have to validate all of this stuff myself although I was confident it was accurate.
- Thanasis Antetokounmpo spelled backwards is Opmnuokotetna (which is Swahili for Hand Sanitizer). Mr. Glass, circa 2014
User avatar
dcapodic
 
Joined: February 4, 2007, 11:38 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2018, 11:50 am

It makes a difference which I tackled wigh the sentence before the one you highlight. Will explain later, am at work.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby Don Che » February 19, 2018, 12:04 pm

Idc about the cap just tell me if we can sign kevon Looney or Mario? Those are the only guys I'd consider anyway
User avatar
Don Che
 
Joined: September 23, 2007, 4:53 pm
Location: Queens

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2018, 3:06 pm

OP is updated to post deadline info.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2018, 3:25 pm

spree#8 wrote:With the deadline in the books, I will update the first post this week. We are a little under, but our trade exceptions and first round pick get us just a little over, so that we could use the biggest MLE.

To Mudiay: the described situation above means that we could create cap room relatively easy. The big advantage why many here prefer his contract situation though is that we get more than a full year before we have to make a decision on what we are willing to invest in him, while with Payton that decision would've to come already after two months.

dcapodic wrote:So, the scenario is correct?

Very respectively, you are calling out someone in another thread about not being accurate or just plain old making a mistake and not owning up for it.


The big advantage why many here prefer his contract situation though is that we get more than a full year before we have to make a decision on what we are willing to invest in him, while with Payton that decision would've to come already after two months.

dcapodic wrote:I get this but did not ask about it. Nor did I deal with age or ability. I strictly asked about the rules of an NBA contract. As I think you are agreeing to and I mentioned in my post, "make a decision" only comes into play if he gets offered a larger contract by another team, correct? If you are gonna mention what you did, then in fairness you should also mention that.

I get your point when you say, numbers are numbers. Mine is, facts are facts and too often people think if you just omit them and never respond to them, they just go away or that you can simply say things and if yo say them often enough, they then become facts. Very indicative of our society these days, but I digress.

Thanks for your help! I really didn't want to have to validate all of this stuff myself although I was confident it was accurate.


A strange way to ask, but let me put the numbers together. After the Mudiay trade, we are very flexible when it comes to creating cap room for 2018, because we sit roughly 2.2m under the cap if as expected O'Quinn opts out. That means as I said in the updated OP, that any money we shed from now on through trades/buyouts/declined player options plus those 2.2m minus one roster charge could be offered to an outside free agent if we renounce O'Quinn, Beasley and Jack. Roughly another mill can be created through waiving Burke.

Now let's assume we didn't trade McDermott and a second-rounder for Mudiay. To keep things as equal as possible, let's say we got Payton for just a second-rounder (like in the real deal the Magic did), but renounce McDermott's 9,884,982 free agent cap hold anyway.

This would mean with O'Quinn still opting out, our cap estimate including Payton's cap hold (300% of his previous salary) - see here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q37 - amounting to 9,997,020 looks like this:

98,745,028-4,294,480+9,997,020=104,447,568. So instead of being roughly 2.2m under the cap we would be 3.4m over the cap. A difference of 5.6m in flexibility. If we could sign Payton for less than his cap hold, this effect of course could get lower, if Payton is able to sign an offer sheet above, that effect would get greater.

So the Mudiay deal has two advantages if a FO likes Mudiay.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2018, 3:32 pm

Don Che wrote:Idc about the cap just tell me if we can sign kevon Looney or Mario? Those are the only guys I'd consider anyway


Without doing anything, we have the non-tax payer MLE at our disposal (roughly 8.5m). If we would want to go after Mario, we could probably do it. The Magic (because the declined his 4th year rookie option) can only offer him up to 5.167m. Also can't see Looney out of our price range.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby Don Che » February 19, 2018, 6:47 pm

than I'm good with it

we have weaknesses at the wing and big guys

whichever position we draft...i'd sign the other.
User avatar
Don Che
 
Joined: September 23, 2007, 4:53 pm
Location: Queens

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby gradyandrew » February 20, 2018, 2:23 am

Thanks Phil! We're still pretty much screwed going ahead because of the 40 million tied up on Noah, Thomas, and Lee in 2019-20. Ideally the Knicks could sign free agents before maxing out KP but it seems like even with Kanter's 20 million coming off (assuming he doesn't opt out ) the Knicks will still be in a tight spot. Even if KP waits to sign, the Knicks will be close to being maxed out especially considering that they will need someone to replace Kanter. If it is going to be that way anyway then it probably makes sense to use this season's MLE to sign a younger guy for more years and keep an eye on trying to open a max slot in 20-21. George Hill, Clarkson, and Nance are getting salary dumped, so the chances for getting out of Lee and Thomas's contracts, much less Noahs look grim as fuck. Considering that a lot of it came down to Phil's decision to roll the dice on Derrick Rose (and sign Noah vs keeping Lopez) I think most of us would admit that sometimes you have to reach for the stars. Oh wait, my bad. I forgot that every schlub on espn spent months warning that whatever team reached for rose would be making a HUGE mistake (Gob Bluth voice). Thanks again Phil!
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
Management didn't get that memo.
gradyandrew
 
Joined: August 11, 2005, 4:58 am

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby Don Che » February 20, 2018, 8:44 am

Because of everything u guy snare saying......I wouldn't bring Langer back unless its at a cheaper rate... 12-15 maybe and even then I'd think about it
User avatar
Don Che
 
Joined: September 23, 2007, 4:53 pm
Location: Queens

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby dcapodic » February 20, 2018, 9:20 am

spree#8 wrote:
A strange way to ask, but let me put the numbers together. After the Mudiay trade, we are very flexible when it comes to creating cap room for 2018, because we sit roughly 2.2m under the cap if as expected O'Quinn opts out. That means as I said in the updated OP, that any money we shed from now on through trades/buyouts/declined player options plus those 2.2m minus one roster charge could be offered to an outside free agent if we renounce O'Quinn, Beasley and Jack. Roughly another mill can be created through waiving Burke.

Now let's assume we didn't trade McDermott and a second-rounder for Mudiay. To keep things as equal as possible, let's say we got Payton for just a second-rounder (like in the real deal the Magic did), but renounce McDermott's 9,884,982 free agent cap hold anyway.

This would mean with O'Quinn still opting out, our cap estimate including Payton's cap hold (300% of his previous salary) - see here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q37 - amounting to 9,997,020 looks like this:

98,745,028-4,294,480+9,997,020=104,447,568. So instead of being roughly 2.2m under the cap we would be 3.4m over the cap. A difference of 5.6m in flexibility. If we could sign Payton for less than his cap hold, this effect of course could get lower, if Payton is able to sign an offer sheet above, that effect would get greater.

So the Mudiay deal has two advantages if a FO likes Mudiay.


Awesome spree, as usual!

A strange way to ask, but let me put the numbers together.


I asked this way for accuracy reasons. When we use terms like "contract issue", "loss of cap space", etc. while technically not wrong they could paint a much different picture than the actual numbers do. With the numbers, as I am sure a "numbers guy" can appreciate, we have the real data in front of us to be able to make a more accurate judgement.

IMHO (so this is an opinion, not fact), the price would have been small, as I have pointed out in my posts on this. Payton's QO for 20018/19 is about 4.5 mill. and as you point out, they could sign him for any where up to almost 10 mill. and your numbers stay accurate. So, even if he gets some offers they are gonna have to be considerably larger than his current salary to have any further effect, and they actually could be less if no (or smaller offers) were to come along. Exactly as you pointed out also, which is VERY fair.

So, I cannot argue with your statement about there being an "advantage" to not doing the deal but it is good to know exactly what that price is and not just random statements of "doom and gloom" :)
- Thanasis Antetokounmpo spelled backwards is Opmnuokotetna (which is Swahili for Hand Sanitizer). Mr. Glass, circa 2014
User avatar
dcapodic
 
Joined: February 4, 2007, 11:38 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby taowave » February 20, 2018, 9:59 am

Just out of curiosity, what do you think Payon gets paid?
taowave
 
Joined: July 7, 2005, 9:54 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby dcapodic » February 20, 2018, 11:08 am

taowave wrote:Just out of curiosity, what do you think Payon gets paid?


Not sure if you mean what is his salary this year and next or what kinda offers will he get next year when he is in his QO year?

First one is easy :) His salary for this year is roughly 3.3 mil. and his QO for next is 4.5 mil.

The second one....well, from the back and forth on the board, it seems that a lot of people don't think much of him so that would speak to him not getting many, if any offers. Also, he just got dumped for a second round pick which, like we have said for Mudiay, is akin to "let's take a stab at him and see if there is something we like". I don't see a team using a full, non taxpayer MLE on Payton (8.8 mil/4 years if I have it right, spree?) but perhaps that is the place you could look at for potential "fair value" should someone decide they really want to try and get him. They would need to go above what his QO is, obviously and add the years on. I am not sure this would really entice Payton, should he think he can get more but that really gets into total speculation. Personally, if he finished out the year playing as he has since he hit Phoenix, I would have no issue with giving him that kinda contract should he get an offer elsewhere and it would actually push spree's estimates down since Payton's cap hold is almost 10 mil.

The cap is not my expertise by any stretch but I am trying to get more familiar with it as after all the debate over Payton I can see how not having a good grasp of how the cap works can really give you a inaccurate look at trades/signings, etc.
- Thanasis Antetokounmpo spelled backwards is Opmnuokotetna (which is Swahili for Hand Sanitizer). Mr. Glass, circa 2014
User avatar
dcapodic
 
Joined: February 4, 2007, 11:38 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 20, 2018, 3:38 pm

The way from here is IMO: focus on the draft, improve on the court and then look at free agency down the road. It's good that we are flexible to create space if an opportunity arises, but otherwise I'm fine going into this summer with the 8.5something MLE.

That being said, finding a solution with Noah would help us tremendously. My hope is that he gives us basically the fourth year back in a buyout, cutting his cap hit practically in half. Wishful thinking right now and of course I'm also fine if he agrees to a higher buyout, but I hope that those discussions gain traction. Obviously he is under no obligation to engage in buyout talks, but I hope the competitor in him wants to get back on the court. Getting 54-62 of the 72 mill for playing one year and then being able to join a playoff team for the other three sounds still like a good deal to me, but of course he can do whatever he feels is best for him.

Nonetheless the second major factor will be if we can talk Porzingis into taking the Leonard-route. Even though we might not be an attractive destination in 2019 yet, we are slated to have a nice chunk of cap room (even with Noah on the books if we don't add too much salary beyond next season), if we first go after other team's free agents in 2019 and then resign KP. It'll be interesting to observe that development, because I'm sure that his camp will push for a rookie extension this summer in light of the injury to minimize his risk.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby taowave » February 20, 2018, 3:47 pm

I was talking next year..

i watched alot of his him,and if his 2018 shooting is for real,he is a player..I doubt he is going to keep up at 20 8 8 tear,but I like him way better than Mudiay as a PG..The logical question is,if hes so dam good,why was he given away?

Simple answer..

In two years, Orlando managed to turn Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo, and Elfrid Payton into Terrence Ross and a second round pick. That's some solid work


If Ron Baker can fetch 5 per,and Hardaway 17,Payton looks like an 8-12 guy..I like him for 8

dcapodic wrote:Not sure if you mean what is his salary this year and next or what kinda offers will he get next year when he is in his QO year?

First one is easy :) His salary for this year is roughly 3.3 mil. and his QO for next is 4.5 mil.

The second one....well, from the back and forth on the board, it seems that a lot of people don't think much of him so that would speak to him not getting many, if any offers. Also, he just got dumped for a second round pick which, like we have said for Mudiay, is akin to "let's take a stab at him and see if there is something we like". I don't see a team using a full, non taxpayer MLE on Payton (8.8 mil/4 years if I have it right, spree?) but perhaps that is the place you could look at for potential "fair value" should someone decide they really want to try and get him. They would need to go above what his QO is, obviously and add the years on. I am not sure this would really entice Payton, should he think he can get more but that really gets into total speculation. Personally, if he finished out the year playing as he has since he hit Phoenix, I would have no issue with giving him that kinda contract should he get an offer elsewhere and it would actually push spree's estimates down since Payton's cap hold is almost 10 mil.

The cap is not my expertise by any stretch but I am trying to get more familiar with it as after all the debate over Payton I can see how not having a good grasp of how the cap works can really give you a inaccurate look at trades/signings, etc.
taowave
 
Joined: July 7, 2005, 9:54 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby gradyandrew » February 21, 2018, 7:17 am

spree#8 wrote:The way from here is IMO: focus on the draft, improve on the court and then look at free agency down the road. It's good that we are flexible to create space if an opportunity arises, but otherwise I'm fine going into this summer with the 8.5something MLE.

That being said, finding a solution with Noah would help us tremendously. My hope is that he gives us basically the fourth year back in a buyout, cutting his cap hit practically in half. Wishful thinking right now and of course I'm also fine if he agrees to a higher buyout, but I hope that those discussions gain traction. Obviously he is under no obligation to engage in buyout talks, but I hope the competitor in him wants to get back on the court. Getting 54-62 of the 72 mill for playing one year and then being able to join a playoff team for the other three sounds still like a good deal to me, but of course he can do whatever he feels is best for him.

Nonetheless the second major factor will be if we can talk Porzingis into taking the Leonard-route. Even though we might not be an attractive destination in 2019 yet, we are slated to have a nice chunk of cap room (even with Noah on the books if we don't add too much salary beyond next season), if we first go after other team's free agents in 2019 and then resign KP. It'll be interesting to observe that development, because I'm sure that his camp will push for a rookie extension this summer in light of the injury to minimize his risk.


Even if he doesn't play at all next season, I think KP will be able to land a max contract. Even if he plays all of next season, he won't win the MVP (or DPOY) so he won't be able to qualify for a super max. If Danilo Gallinari can get 50 million over 3 years (or whatever it was) KP will have no problem getting that max. Hell, Embiid landed a max extension after playing something like 40 games over 4 years, no way KP or his team is sweating it.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
Management didn't get that memo.
gradyandrew
 
Joined: August 11, 2005, 4:58 am

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 21, 2018, 7:35 am

Of course the expectation is that he gets the max no matter what. The important question for us is whether he signs that max contract BEFORE the start of next season (rookie extension) or in 2019. If he is willing to sign his max contract in 2019, we could go the Kawhi Leonard route and have more money to go after outside free agents, because his cap hold should be eight figures under his max. For his camp it still makes sense to push on that extension - if he wants to remain with the Knicks - because he could have another major injury in a worst case. That's how most sports agencies act: get as much guaranteed money as early as possible - especially when it comes to injuries.

Embiid is a good example exactly for that.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby dcapodic » February 21, 2018, 7:53 am

spree#8 wrote:The way from here is IMO: focus on the draft, improve on the court and then look at free agency down the road. It's good that we are flexible to create space if an opportunity arises, but otherwise I'm fine going into this summer with the 8.5something MLE.

That being said, finding a solution with Noah would help us tremendously. My hope is that he gives us basically the fourth year back in a buyout, cutting his cap hit practically in half. Wishful thinking right now and of course I'm also fine if he agrees to a higher buyout, but I hope that those discussions gain traction. Obviously he is under no obligation to engage in buyout talks, but I hope the competitor in him wants to get back on the court. Getting 54-62 of the 72 mill for playing one year and then being able to join a playoff team for the other three sounds still like a good deal to me, but of course he can do whatever he feels is best for him.

Nonetheless the second major factor will be if we can talk Porzingis into taking the Leonard-route. Even though we might not be an attractive destination in 2019 yet, we are slated to have a nice chunk of cap room (even with Noah on the books if we don't add too much salary beyond next season), if we first go after other team's free agents in 2019 and then resign KP. It'll be interesting to observe that development, because I'm sure that his camp will push for a rookie extension this summer in light of the injury to minimize his risk.


I agree with this in theory. However, I don't want the Knicks to get stuck in a straight line trajectory mentality. Of course, trading first round picks should be off the table, especially given how bad they are right now. Yes, they so need to actually improve on the court but I am to sure how that happens except, hopefully through natural development of guys such as Frank. That being said, they need to find and acquire talent however, whenever they can find it. With their cap challenges, this is generally (and fitting into their plans) going to be younger, somewhat developing type players. So yea, there will be some risk. But it is a simple risk/reward scenario....be willing to pay extra for shorter years with the payback being you either find a talent or they are gone before the team really hits its stride.

The reason I dwelled on the Payton scenario is that opportunity presented a good risk/reward payback. Even if you did have to pay him (assuming they considered him worth it), you are probably looking at a respectably affordable contract with little downside towards the cap (as we have gone through ad nauseam) for a player who has shown an upside. Is it a frightfully missed opportunity, no but when you look at what he had done and consider what we are paying to Frank and Mudiay with the hope that something works out, it looked like a good gamble if the chance was actually there. So, off Payton but we need to keep our eyes on those types of chances.

There is not roadmap to building a success in the NBA. As has been pointed out on this board many times, teams have gone about it different ways. I agree with the general scenario of building through the draft, but that is a long and difficult road and you had better be good draft pickers, LUCKY, and VERY patient. Oh, you also need to stink for a long time.
- Thanasis Antetokounmpo spelled backwards is Opmnuokotetna (which is Swahili for Hand Sanitizer). Mr. Glass, circa 2014
User avatar
dcapodic
 
Joined: February 4, 2007, 11:38 pm

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby gradyandrew » February 21, 2018, 8:00 am

spree#8 wrote:Of course the expectation is that he gets the max no matter what. The important question for us is whether he signs that max contract BEFORE the start of next season (rookie extension) or in 2019. If he is willing to sign his max contract in 2019, we could go the Kawhi Leonard route and have more money to go after outside free agents, because his cap hold should be eight figures under his max. For his camp it still makes sense to push on that extension - if he wants to remain with the Knicks - because he could have another major injury in a worst case. That's how most sports agencies act: get as much guaranteed money as early as possible - especially when it comes to injuries.

Embiid is a good example exactly for that.


It should still be a pretty safe situation for the Knicks even if they don't want to play ball with his agents this summer. They will still be able to offer KP that 5th year even if they wait until the end.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
Management didn't get that memo.
gradyandrew
 
Joined: August 11, 2005, 4:58 am

Re: Knicks 2018 cap situation

Postby spree#8 » February 21, 2018, 8:41 am

Playing hardball doesn't lead to a successive partnership though. Why do you think so many top players sign rookie extensions early? If you want to do a salary cap stunt, you better get on the same page with that player. You make it sound so easy, yet it is barely seen.
#knickstape
User avatar
spree#8
 
Joined: June 5, 2006, 1:21 pm

PreviousNext

Return to New York Knicks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 10 guests