System or Player

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System or Player

Postby taowave » May 10, 2017, 1:00 pm

Interesting read on choosing between Monk/Fox / Ntilikina and how they fit in Phils Triangle


Several members of the Knicks organization, including general manager Steve Mills, will be in Chicago this week for the NBA draft combine. Mills & Co. will have a chance to interview and watch prospects as they prepare for the draft in late June – one of the most important nights in Phil Jackson’s presidency.

The Knicks will find out exactly where they pick on Tuesday night when the NBA holds its draft lottery. Based on probability, New York is most likely to pick seventh on June 22. The Knicks also have two second-round picks.

Members of the organization have been scouting players in the draft for months; there are a few players that those members have become fond of: French guard Frank Ntilikina and Kentucky guards De’Aaron Fox and Malik Monk, among others. Also, just like the rest of the NBA, members of the organization are also enamored by Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball and Josh Jackson.

The player the Knicks end up selecting will depend on how the pingpong balls bounce Tuesday.

Whom should they select? That’s up for debate.

In preparation for the draft combine, ESPN’s Fran Fraschilla and Jeff Goodman answered questions about prospects on a conference call Tuesday. Here is their assessment of some players on the Knicks’ radar:

Frank Ntilikina: “Well, the broader view here is there's likely to be five point guards drafted in the first 10. It's going to be interesting. And most likely because of the fact that people don't know him like they know the four college kids, he's going to go fifth,” Fraschilla said. “And what I love about him -- and by the way, I think he's going to be able to show you -- I hate to say this because I'm not a fan of the triangle, I think in the modern NBA the spacing doesn't work as well as it did in the old days, but he's a triangle kind of player, simply because he's not really a 1, and he's not really a 2. He's a guard.

“He can make decisions well. He shoots it well. He's athletic. He could be a good defender. And you're also looking at a kid who's still 18 years old. His long-term potential as an NBA player is very good. I watched him last summer at the Jordan Gym in New York City, and he made 27 out of 30 NBA 3s. I think people who didn't know him early on -- the obligatory line when you don't know somebody is, he's a really good athlete, but he's not a great shooter, and he's dispelling that this year in France, shooting over 40 percent from the international 3. He doesn't have the polish of a Fultz or Ball or the speed and athleticism or raw athleticism of Fox or Smith, but he has the look and feel of an NBA guard when he grows up.”

De’Aaron Fox: “I just would say quickly that obviously De'Aaron Fox's speed and athleticism, given the way the NBA game is at the moment -- that’s going to trump the fact that he has to continue to improve his shot,” Fraschilla said. “But I'm sure Jeff has talked to the same type of scouts who say, you cannot, in this modern NBA, teach his speed and athleticism, and unlike some of the non-shooting point guards in the league that are -- actually hurt their team, he is probably -- you could safely compare him to a young John Wall because of the same attributes. But it'll help him -- it's not in his DNA to be a great shooter, because he's never had to be, but it certainly helps him in his NBA future down the road if he continues to figure out a way to make some shots, but the speed and athleticism will get him drafted, obviously, in the top five or six.

Added Goodman: “I think he's only helped by his character, too. I mean, high-character kid, shined when it mattered in the NCAA tournament, for the most part. I think you're looking at a guy who's certainly going to go in the top 10 and could go as high as 5.”


Fran Fraschilla sees Malik Monk as an off-the-bench scorer in the NBA.
Malik Monk: “I wish he was 6-5 and not 6-3 with an average swing span, because for me the poster child for Malik Monk is what Jamal Crawford has done in his career. I think Malik, once he settles into his NBA career, is going to be a scorer off the bench,” Fraschilla said. “I know he probably wouldn't want to hear that, but he is a -- he is still a volume shooter. He had the ultimate green light in high school. He had a green light at Kentucky. It actually hurt them at times. He can put the ball in the basket. There's no doubt about it. But the fact that he's undersized, with a below-average wingspan for the position, he is going to have to become what I call a technician. He is really going to have to work on NBA footwork, creating space and separation. It's all there for him because when you draft these guys nowadays, for the most part, they're NBA Silly Putty. You get to mold them with your coaching staff. You know, I like him. His NBA future to me is a lead off-the-bench scorer.”


Added Goodman: “I think with Malik Monk, it's not being a volume guy. You know, being able to handle picking your spots in the NBA a little bit because who knows where he's going to go and how many shots he's going to get. He had a long leash in a sense for Kentucky because they needed him to score the ball, so I think it's going to be different for him, most likely, in the NBA, he's not going to come in and get 20 shots every game. So I think for him, it's just going to be consistency with his effort and with his production.”

Lastly, given his expressed disdain for the triangle and the Knicks’ emphasis of the offense, Fraschilla was asked whether he thought Fox or Monk was a better fit in the triangle: “I think you have to have a certain type of versatility and skill level to play in the triangle. De'Aaron is going to be able to fit most systems because of his speed,” he said. “I mean, it just doesn't make sense to walk the ball up the court in the modern NBA into a half-court triangle set, so he's going to be able to adjust. But you do have to have a certain type of versatility in my opinion to play in the pure triangle because everybody is interchangeable; you have to play multiple positions within the triangle, and that would cater to Frank's versatility versus De'Aaron's speed in the NBA game. But again, if you're not running in the NBA and trying to get easy baskets, you're probably not a playoff team.”
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Re: System or Player

Postby H20Knick » May 10, 2017, 4:25 pm

Good find, Tao

I think between you, me, big J, and shakes we've talked about this ad nauseum. If Fox is on the board somehow and we end up with Frank or Monk instead because "TRIANGLE", Phil should just get fired on the spot. If you look around the league at what wins and what doesnt, you have to think its Fultz >> Fox > DSJ and then the rest of these guys.
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Re: System or Player

Postby Don Che » May 10, 2017, 4:45 pm

idk how to say this w/o being a d*ck

wtf did MJ/Kobe just walk the ball up every possession? I hate hearing all these ppl that are supposedly experts saying the system is slow....When was MJ/Pippen slow? Last i checked they played great defense got out on the break and took your heart out before you can gain momentum.

I remember the Shaq led lakers....got out and ran on you...Kobe led lakers...got out and ran you

all these teams played the triangle...i didnt hear none of this sh*t when they were winning...actually i only hear about the triangle sucking when we lose not when it actually won. When those players won it all i didnt HEAR ONE PERSON say "wow that triangle offense is something" all i heard was how great Kobe and Shaq and MJ and Pippen were..which makes sense i get it. So when a team loses running that system...why would the triangle be the blame?...why are we actin like Melo was winning rings before this system was implemented.

Even tho I watch GSW who 1. run the triangle and 2. run all over the place with fast actions running the playoffs..and guess who else is running this?....oh yeh the team that just won it all.

Lebron isnt walking up the court plodding all slow to the his spots....

so why...why oh why....would you blame the triangle on being slow...when its really your best player is slow.

IDGAF if Mike D'antoni was here....Noah/KP/Melo is slow AF....Jose was slow AF....Aflalo was slow AF Rose was quick but he was the only one that was and never played defense.

Only person that can be a part of a great defensive team is KP.....you want to see a faster pace system? get a faster pace player.

Put Fox and 2 athletes on the perimeter that defend and you'll see speed...you'll see this "offensive" system work

no offensive system can win w/o defense and easy buckets i dont care what sets you run. more times than not the team with more EASY/OPEN buckets wins games. What made MJ/Pippen/Kobe great? that even if they shot bad in the half court...they got out on the break...throw a dunk down ...get to the free throw line and get their timing to kill you in the end. When Melo shoots bad in the half court......he talks to refs and goes to sleep.
Last edited by Don Che on May 10, 2017, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: System or Player

Postby Don Che » May 10, 2017, 4:51 pm

ok..now thats over

I think Fox/Frank/Monk call all fit what we do..issue is that you build your roster differently for each one.

If you take Fox(assuming Will and KP start) you need 2 wing players that can hit the 3 with 1 playmaker in the mix

Monk needs 2 playmakers on the wing...1 that can spread the floor and 1 can just be a goon out there.

Frank....haard to say since i never watched a full game but...you need a playmaker and a scorer next to him

i think all these guys can work and ofcourse the players ideally next to them wont be there next year...may take time to get that but put them in situations to succeed is all about building the roster around your focal points of the roster which to me is Kristaps..this pick and maybe Will depending on how he progresses along with the style of play you want to be played which is currently the triangle offense.
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Re: System or Player

Postby H20Knick » May 10, 2017, 6:01 pm

Actually....

The 91-92 Bulls were 19th/27 in Pace at 95.6
The 92-93 Bulls were 22nd/27 in Pace at 91.6
The 93-94 Bulls were 27th/27 in Pace at 92.5
The 95-96 Bulls were 19th/29 in Pace at 91.1
The 96-97 Bulls were 17th/29 in Pace at 90.0
The 97-98 Bulls were 22/29 in Pace at 89.0

The 01-02 and 08-09 Lakers teams are the only Phil championship triangle teams to be top 10 in Pace (possessions per 48 minutes)
The mean pace for those 11 championship teams is 92.2, the median is 92.1, the standard deviation is 1.86

For comparison, Golden State this year clocks in at a 99.8 and that's only 4th.
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Re: System or Player

Postby H20Knick » May 10, 2017, 6:06 pm

Don Che wrote:
so why...why oh why....would you blame the triangle on being slow...when its really your best player is slow.

IDGAF if Mike D'antoni was here....Noah/KP/Melo is slow AF....Jose was slow AF....Aflalo was slow AF Rose was quick but he was the only one that was and never played defense.

Only person that can be a part of a great defensive team is KP.....you want to see a faster pace system? get a faster pace player.

Put Fox and 2 athletes on the perimeter that defend and you'll see speed...you'll see this "offensive" system work

no offensive system can win w/o defense and easy buckets i dont care what sets you run. more times than not the team with more EASY/OPEN buckets wins games. What made MJ/Pippen/Kobe great? that even if they shot bad in the half court...they got out on the break...throw a dunk down ...get to the free throw line and get their timing to kill you in the end. When Melo shoots bad in the half court......he talks to refs and goes to sleep.


Our entire point is that Phil picks players based on a system that values players in a way that goes against current NBA trends.

Yes, you're right Don, Noah/KP/Melo is slow AF, Jose was slow AF, Afflalo was slow AF....

Phil traded/drafted/signed ALL of those guys. Every last one of them is here because of Phil. Melo isn't slow for a 4 spot, but Phil gave him a 5 year deal, then let a 7'3 draft pick play 4 and signed another big to seal Melo in a position where he'd be slow. Tyson Chandler is a decent athlete for a center.. Jose Calderon is a terrible athlete for a PG. JR/Shump are solid athletes for guards, Afflalo? Not so much. Joahkim Noah has not been able to properly move for 3 years now. Phil gave him 4 years.

The problem with the triangle isn't the actual triangle. It's that 1) Phil keeps picking certain players because they fit the triangle, even though they're decrepit and 2) Good free agents have no interest in playing here because the triangle shackles creativity for everyone except top 5 all time shooting guards.
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Re: System or Player

Postby H20Knick » May 10, 2017, 6:11 pm

Don Che wrote:ok..now thats over

I think Fox/Frank/Monk call all fit what we do..issue is that you build your roster differently for each one.

If you take Fox(assuming Will and KP start) you need 2 wing players that can hit the 3 with 1 playmaker in the mix

Monk needs 2 playmakers on the wing...1 that can spread the floor and 1 can just be a goon out there.

Frank....haard to say since i never watched a full game but...you need a playmaker and a scorer next to him

i think all these guys can work and ofcourse the players ideally next to them wont be there next year...may take time to get that but put them in situations to succeed is all about building the roster around your focal points of the roster which to me is Kristaps..this pick and maybe Will depending on how he progresses along with the style of play you want to be played which is currently the triangle offense.


So, you go through all of these rants about how the league depends on playmakers. You watch Aldridge and Gasol have no where near their salary's worth in impact on last nights Game 5. But you come and still say that the focal point of our roster is Kristaps.

If Fultz/Ball/Fox/DSJ ends up on the board where we draft, then that guy must become the focal point of the offense. You can't have a non-playmaker as the focal point of your offense. As a Melo-detractor, I'd fully expect you to understand and accept that.
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Re: System or Player

Postby taowave » May 10, 2017, 9:31 pm

Don,anytime someone defends the triangle with Shaq/Kobe or MJ/Pippen, I immediately wince. Jackson has a disdain for today's 3 PT happy offense,and he's quite vocal about it. It's a bit absurd as the 3 best teams in the league,San Antonio, Cleveland and Golden State are the 3 best long ball teams.

Phil is having a very difficult time adjusting to today's NBA and as H20 pointed out,he doesn't exactly go after the most athletic guys with the exception of Rose.

I truly hope Phil doesn't pass on a Fox as he isn't a great fit for the Triangle. Shaq,MJ and Kobe made the triangle,not the other way around.
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Re: System or Player

Postby Don Che » May 10, 2017, 10:38 pm

where to begin...


Golden state runs triangle principles...so do the Cavs..less extent the spurs so that along with the data you pulled from the 11 rings all remain true...you can run this offense fast or slow its more on our roster than it is on your system of play.

i mention playmakers and still revolve around KP....yes most of the time your 4/5 isnt creating..they are finishing. If you draft a guard this year...you just run the offense..and you build the rest of the roster in allowing KP and whoever you draft to excel.So does the offense run around KP?...not really you just run the set..you defend. call it a day.

As for the 3 ball comment...i never even mentioned 3 ball being an issue lol I actually mentioned in which scenario we would need it. I think you guys see me defending the triangle offense and you go nuts just bashing Phil. My post is strictly on the offense.

Your point about the issue is Phil and not the triangle...i agree completely


LASTLY in regards to the legends or the system and what makes what...the way i see it...all systems need talent. Popovich wouldnt win without his hall of famers...same with Riley. So im not even sure why this is even used as a point of reference. At the same time I think the traingle offense is great when you have 2 very talented players willing to pass and it involves everyone making a play. I'd rather watch that then high pick and roll and thats it.

Phil wants to run the triangle doesnt change the fact he needs to get talent thats willing to commit to it while defending at a high level.
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Re: System or Player

Postby Rusty La Rue » May 11, 2017, 3:58 am

Of course we should run when we have the chance... and I believe that is what Hornacek is all about. The triangle sets is when that option is not available and who can be against ball movement and taking smart shots? Which I believe what the triangle is really about and why a lot of teams runs variations of the triangle. If Melo just would accept to continually make quick decisions he would fit perfectly into the offense which he has shown on several occasions but for some reason he does not seem to want to do that full time...
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Re: System or Player

Postby Don Che » May 11, 2017, 12:18 pm

Rusty La Rue wrote:Of course we should run when we have the chance... and I believe that is what Hornacek is all about. The triangle sets is when that option is not available and who can be against ball movement and taking smart shots? Which I believe what the triangle is really about and why a lot of teams runs variations of the triangle. If Melo just would accept to continually make quick decisions he would fit perfectly into the offense which he has shown on several occasions but for some reason he does not seem to want to do that full time...


precisely

If Melo was an average defender/ made quick decisions with the ball. We wouldnt have anything to complain about in his regard.
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