[Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby H20Knick » February 16, 2017, 6:06 pm

taowave wrote:J,the strategy is not inherently flawed,the execution is along with some bad luck with Amare.



That wasn't bad luck, that was just a plain stupid signing. Phoenix, the team that he'd elevated for years, wouldn't give him the contract we offered. The history of players fully recovering from microfracture is all you needed to know to avoid putting all your eggs in the Amare basket. The move reeked of desperation. Then, after all of that stupidity, you compound the fact by wasting your amnesty to release a guy that you could've just let go on a team option. Luck has ZERO to do with us fucking up on Amare. That was all Donnie Walsh and Glen Grunwald.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby CommonSense » February 16, 2017, 7:19 pm

I'm okay with where KP is at because even in a best case scenario we probably weren't winning the East till Lebron retires, so we got all these years to suck or be mediocre. Honestly if this is how our "win now" teams look I'd be down to just tank 14 more years and fill a team that way...KP will be a wily veteran ready for our run!
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 16, 2017, 7:39 pm

How many stretch-4's have become All-Stars? :hmm:

Kevin Love... Who else?

I don't really consider Dirk a stretch-4 because he was more than just a catch and shoot player.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby H20Knick » February 16, 2017, 7:52 pm

KnicksFanInSouthFL wrote:How many stretch-4's have become All-Stars? :hmm:

Kevin Love... Who else?

I don't really consider Dirk a stretch-4 because he was more than just a catch and shoot player.


LJ played a lot of PF in his later years.

Millsap, Bosh, and Dirk came to mind for a second, but they all have legitimate post moves and at least spend most of their time from the elbow in.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 16, 2017, 8:41 pm

^^^
Exactly, their post play and ability to consistently get to the free throw line give them an added dimension that the most stretch-4's simply don't have...
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby CommonSense » February 16, 2017, 9:00 pm

Were all those guys done developing their game at 21 though?
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby shakespeare » February 16, 2017, 10:05 pm

H20Knick wrote: my saints fandom combined... But I wouldn't trade that 2010 super bowl win for anything the knicks have done in my lifetime. Winning it all is that damn glorious.


True story.

One time I cracked my shin bone after New Orleans lost a playoff game back in the days. I was just that upset and kept saying to myself why am I so invested into this weak franchise that will never win a playoff game, let alone a Super Bowl.

But still I loved dem Saints, year after year after year of disappointment. You don't know but I'd suffered a tremendous loss in life in October '05 and, although real family and friends and even Soulstar and Irv encouraged me, I never really felt in my heart that I'd overcome it all. I was disheartened for years. My spirit was so broken into pieces.

But you know what did wonders for my spirit? When the Saints won the Super Bowl. That has to be one of the most unforgettable feelings I've had in life. My mom is a Saints fan, too. I still watch the DVD of the championship season to the day. Even when Brees throws one of his infamous 4th quarter interceptions, I'm good, cause he led us to a Super Bowl and Super Bowl victory. I can't take anything away from Brees nor Sean Payton nor Tracy Porter. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sDdlJbBPLc

The positive changes in my life are so connected to that season and game that I was even happy for Manning when he won another Super Bowl against Carolina after that heartbreaking interception against New Orleans (and Seattle's dominance of Denver in another Super Bowl). Like myself, and like our fellow Knick fans, I wanted to see Manning say to himself, "Yeah, I've lost big, but I kept going and going, and look at me now. The same goes for the Cubbies. Man, one day the Knicks are gonna win the NBA championship -- watch and see.

Also, I saw this video earlier and thought about when you said that one can tell the great ones from the first time you witness them. This was around '84 I suppose, and Jordan was doing stuff on the court that no one had ever witnessed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqwVTE4k-SM
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby H20Knick » February 17, 2017, 9:51 am

shakespeare wrote:
True story.

One time I cracked my shin bone after New Orleans lost a playoff game back in the days. I was just that upset and kept saying to myself why am I so invested into this weak franchise that will never win a playoff game, let alone a Super Bowl.

But still I loved dem Saints, year after year after year of disappointment. You don't know but I'd suffered a tremendous loss in life in October '05 and, although real family and friends and even Soulstar and Irv encouraged me, I never really felt in my heart that I'd overcome it all. I was disheartened for years. My spirit was so broken into pieces.

But you know what did wonders for my spirit? When the Saints won the Super Bowl. That has to be one of the most unforgettable feelings I've had in life. My mom is a Saints fan, too. I still watch the DVD of the championship season to the day. Even when Brees throws one of his infamous 4th quarter interceptions, I'm good, cause he led us to a Super Bowl and Super Bowl victory. I can't take anything away from Brees nor Sean Payton nor Tracy Porter. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sDdlJbBPLc

The positive changes in my life are so connected to that season and game that I was even happy for Manning when he won another Super Bowl against Carolina after that heartbreaking interception against New Orleans (and Seattle's dominance of Denver in another Super Bowl). Like myself, and like our fellow Knick fans, I wanted to see Manning say to himself, "Yeah, I've lost big, but I kept going and going, and look at me now. The same goes for the Cubbies. Man, one day the Knicks are gonna win the NBA championship -- watch and see.

Also, I saw this video earlier and thought about when you said that one can tell the great ones from the first time you witness them. This was around '84 I suppose, and Jordan was doing stuff on the court that no one had ever witnessed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqwVTE4k-SM


Infinite respect, shakes! :clap:
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 17, 2017, 1:27 pm

CommonSense wrote:Were all those guys done developing their game at 21 though?

No, but LJ entered the league as a Beast (High Schooler, Zion Williamson could be the next LJ) so there's no need to question his skillset... Chris Bosh was almost a 23 ppg and 10 rpg player by the time he was 21 years old. And despite Dirk's slow start everyone knew he was gonna be a special player... Outta the guys mentioned Millsap was the only player who took some years to develop, and even he had more of a complete game as a rookie than what we've seen from Putback-P during his second season.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby lxn_ » February 17, 2017, 1:31 pm

I just hope KP works on his body this offseason and get to the 244-248lbs mark. Cuz other offseasons might be too busy as latvians will want him to play for their country. He should work on hit core,lower body, torso strength. And lastly I think he should work with either Hakeem or Mchale on post moves. Mchale was a master at the post and he weighs around 220.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby spree#8 » February 17, 2017, 9:04 pm

KnicksFanInSouthFL wrote:No, but LJ entered the league as a Beast (High Schooler, Zion Williamson could be the next LJ) so there's no need to question his skillset... Chris Bosh was almost a 23 ppg and 10 rpg player by the time he was 21 years old. And despite Dirk's slow start everyone knew he was gonna be a special player... Outta the guys mentioned Millsap was the only player who took some years to develop, and even he had more of a complete game as a rookie than what we've seen from Putback-P during his second season.


Right, that's why he got picked 9th and traded for Tractor Traylor. Everyone knew. :sadno:
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 17, 2017, 10:56 pm

^^^
Swapping lottery picks never happens, huh? :?



Special...
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby spree#8 » February 18, 2017, 6:33 am

What do you want to show me, KFISF? I followed Nowitzki's whole career from before the start in the NBA. Despite that Nike hoop summit there wasn't everybody in love with him. In fact the Mavericks were able to trade down to pick 9 to get him - he was their guy and they were THAT sure that he would be available at 9. No one knew that he would develop into at least the best European player ever at that point in time. And Dirk didn't develop into an alpha NBA player before Nash left. He was an all-star and a great scorer before after a slow start to the league, but only then - when everyone thought the Mavs would get worse after Nash had left, but in reality they got better with Dirk as the clear alpha - the NBA and the world recognized just how special Dirk is.

Now having said that, no one in their right mind should think that KP can become as good - you should never expect someone to become the best European player ever (that is just a little too much expectation) - just enjoy, that he is developing fine. He is ahead of curve of where many other young all-star bigs in this league where in their second season and if he keeps developing at this rate, he could become an all-star in the next two years. That after being drafted with Knicks fans in angst that he could bust and many - including you, my friend - all over other players in that draft that don't look like better long-term players than Porzingis right now. So, the only thing that really matters is that we took the best guy available for us at no. 4 and that he is developing into an efficient 20 point scorer who can do damage at the rim, from the midrange and from outside. He is not just a stretch 4 at all. He is also already a very good shot blocker. So what's not to like about the best young player we had since Ewing?

That you can't see right now, that he will become an alpha dog with a post game you like, that definitely will lead us to a championship? I mean c'mon, this is not how building through the draft works. You don't tank for one season, get a 4th pick and definitely get an All-NBA-First-Team, future Finals MVP, future Hall-of-Famer just like that. That's disenchanted. You just always take the best player available and start to develop guys on your own, without always looking at guys from other teams before you really know what you have. KP looks like a rock solid building piece and we might be able to add another exciting piece in this years draft if we don't make a late playoff push. You watch college ball a lot and I like reading your scouting reports in the NCAA forum alot - so why can't you get excited about adding someone of this years draft to a team with KP? What is your standpoint exactly right now? You think KP is overrated and we should sell him high? Why not develop this guy fully?

He needs to improve his post-game. Agreed. But why not give him the time to do it?

BTW: I love it, that Dirk is now the holy grail of international players, when I had to argue for him being special for most of his career until he won the championship at age 33.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby Don Che » February 18, 2017, 11:26 am

For real ppl have memory loss... Dirk was in the Melo boat and before that was considered soft like most euros are labeled as.

Ppl develop and as of right now...kp is comparable or maybe better than dirk was while having 2 chuckers on the squad

Once dirk got Nash he went to another level....let's get KP his lead guard counterpart.... of Melo wants to stay wonderful if he wants to leave...wonderful.. but every roster move and scheme needs to be revolved around KP not because he's better than Melo but because he has enough time to be here in his prime when the roster is build to contend.

Just get a guard to get KP and Will easy buckets

Next year focus on 1 wing that can be a playmaker and defend and let those 4 grow for a couple years
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby spree#8 » February 18, 2017, 11:43 am

Don Che wrote:For real ppl have memory loss... Dirk was in the Melo boat and before that was considered soft like most euros are labeled as.

Ppl develop and as of right now...kp is comparable or maybe better than dirk was while having 2 chuckers on the squad

Once dirk got Nash he went to another level....let's get KP his lead guard counterpart.... of Melo wants to stay wonderful if he wants to leave...wonderful.. but every roster move and scheme needs to be revolved around KP not because he's better than Melo but because he has enough time to be here in his prime when the roster is build to contend.

Just get a guard to get KP and Will easy buckets

Next year focus on 1 wing that can be a playmaker and defend and let those 4 grow for a couple years


Nowitzki had Nash from the beginning, but went real Dirk mode once everyone thought the Mavs were done after the '04 playoffs and Nash left for Phoenix. Other than that memory refresh, you make good points.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby cragganmor » February 18, 2017, 12:21 pm

for the bulk of his career, the mavs were postseason underachievers. they finally got the right coach, got the right players around dirk late in his career. I think they got lucky drawing the heat, a team whose chemistry was still fragile in the finals.

agree that we need a playmaker to bring out the best in kp.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby Don Che » February 18, 2017, 3:24 pm

Dirk was viewed as Melo is before the ring

Nash helped Dirk get to another level because he got him easy buckets

KP and Will need a lead playmaker to take them to another level

Let's keep it simple....get athletes and a playmaker and evaluate

We didn't have a pick last year so we have to double down and land a gem this year

Technically if grnwald wasn't an idiot we could have Jamal Murray and KP right now...which would help now and later
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 18, 2017, 9:57 pm

spree#8 wrote:... So what's not to like about the best young player we had since Ewing?

That you can't see right now, that he will become an alpha dog with a post game you like, that definitely will lead us to a championship? I mean c'mon, this is not how building through the draft works. You don't tank for one season, get a 4th pick and definitely get an All-NBA-First-Team, future Finals MVP, future Hall-of-Famer just like that. That's disenchanted. You just always take the best player available and start to develop guys on your own, without always looking at guys from other teams before you really know what you have. KP looks like a rock solid building piece and we might be able to add another exciting piece in this years draft if we don't make a late playoff push. You watch college ball a lot and I like reading your scouting reports in the NCAA forum alot - so why can't you get excited about adding someone of this years draft to a team with KP? What is your standpoint exactly right now? You think KP is overrated and we should sell him high? Why not develop this guy fully?

He needs to improve his post-game. Agreed. But why not give him the time to do it?

BTW: I love it, that Dirk is now the holy grail of international players, when I had to argue for him being special for most of his career until he won the championship at age 33.

Putback-P is the best pick we've had since Ewing... I keep reading this, it's as if y'all somehow believe it excludes him from being criticized. Like we should ignore all of his limitations and just assume that because it's still only his second season that he'll eventually figure things out despite the obvious... And can y'all stop with the Nowitzki comparison. Dirk entered the league in an era when physical basketball still existed, and as a result was forced to miss most of his rookie season due to not being physically ready to compete and yet he still had the ability to operate in the post and/or take his defender of the dribble. Two things our current stretch-4 is still unable to do...

Which brings me to this point, aside from being tall/long (which helps with shot blocking) and an above average shooter what else does Putback-P do well? Without being a homer the answer is nuthin at all, which by definition makes him a stretch-4... And in the modern NBA stretch-4's are a dime a dozen. So excuse me for not sharing the same level of optimism for him that the rest of y'all seem to have... Don't get me wrong because I do like the dude and believe he can be a solid contributor for us but that's about as far as it goes for me.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby spree#8 » February 19, 2017, 6:39 am

KnicksFanInSouthFL wrote:Putback-P is the best pick we've had since Ewing... I keep reading this, it's as if y'all somehow believe it excludes him from being criticized. Like we should ignore all of his limitations and just assume that because it's still only his second season that he'll eventually figure things out despite the obvious... And can y'all stop with the Nowitzki comparison. Dirk entered the league in an era when physical basketball still existed, and as a result was forced to miss most of his rookie season due to not being physically ready to compete and yet he still had the ability to operate in the post and/or take his defender of the dribble. Two things our current stretch-4 is still unable to do...

Which brings me to this point, aside from being tall/long (which helps with shot blocking) and an above average shooter what else does Putback-P do well? Without being a homer the answer is nuthin at all, which by definition makes him a stretch-4... And in the modern NBA stretch-4's are a dime a dozen. So excuse me for not sharing the same level of optimism for him that the rest of y'all seem to have... Don't get me wrong because I do like the dude and believe he can be a solid contributor for us but that's about as far as it goes for me.


I'm not the one who brings up Nowitzki as a comparison, because - as I said - you should never expect someone to become the best European player ever. To tall an order. What I did is answer on your claim that Nowitzki was further along in his development in his second year in the league - which simply isn't true and this is coming from probably the biggest Nowitzki fan here on the board. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =nowitdi01

You also keep saying, that he is just a stretch 4 - which again is simply not true. Watch all his 52 FGs so far he scores with above league average field goal percentages from around the block and free throw line: http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag=3& ... r&sct=zone

Watch all his with above league average efficiency scored 117 FGs inside so far: http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag=3& ... r&sct=zone

Does he also have good range? Sure, but calling him "just a stretch 4" is definitely selling him short. He uses his height well to his advantage and is doing what a lot of coaches teach big men: don't take the ball to the floor to make yourself small! He still does it from time to time - which is good, because he can do it - but he isn't over dribbling so far. Will he have to learn to isolate against his opponents longer - either with him posting his opponents up or taking them off the dribble - if he wants to become a first option to draw the defense to him? Sure. Does he have to learn to pass better out of double teams? Sure. But where is the problem? He/we have tons of time.
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Re: [Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

Postby KnicksFanInSouthFL » February 19, 2017, 1:15 pm

^^^
Again, Nowitzki played in a completely different era against big/strong highly skilled players like Duncan, Malone, Webber, KG, Wallace, McDyess, Kemp, Derrick Coleman, etc... In an era when centers like Ewing, Camby, Shaq, Mourning, Mutombo, Theo Ratliff, Robinson etc, still anchored the paint. How'd you think Putback-P would of fared back then? He probably would've been stashed somewhere in Europe because neither his game nor his body would've been ready for that kinda grueling NBA test... So comparing his first two seasons with Nowitzki doesn't make much sense.

The graphs and efficiency numbers you listed paint a pretty picture but if you ignore all the put-backs, dunks, and lay-ups he's shooting 32% on baskets within 5-9 feet (which is unacceptable for a 7'3" guy with 7'6" wingspan). 48% on baskets 10-14 feet. And 34% at 15-19 feet.

I admit I might be selling him short by calling him a stretch-4 but until I see otherwise it is what it is...
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