2017-2018 Tank

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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby gradyandrew » October 10, 2017, 10:21 pm

This thread is too much for me to get into before we even play. I will say that I think the Nets won't be terrible and that their pick will be around 10.

NY, Chicago and LA are all tanking in a loaded draft.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby Don Che » October 10, 2017, 10:37 pm

I like Miles but not for us.

I want a guy that can get 10 rebounds and/or 10 assists on any given night with great defense

Miles while very good isn't that guy based off last year maybe this year he will show that
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » October 11, 2017, 7:17 am

gradyandrew wrote:This thread is too much for me to get into before we even play. I will say that I think the Nets won't be terrible and that their pick will be around 10.

NY, Chicago and LA are all tanking in a loaded draft.

Lakers can't tank they don't have their pick this yr. Going to Boston or Philly depends
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » October 11, 2017, 7:22 am

People are sleeping on Bagley
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby Don Che » October 11, 2017, 8:13 am

Bagley isn't as athletic to me as other ppl say.

He's a 3 in a 4 mans game. Gotta see him play in college to scout him better
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby shakespeare » October 11, 2017, 10:01 am

BRIGGS wrote:Jalen Brunson.

Bowman from BC.


I like both college players. I view them the same as I viewed Frank Mason. Solid collegiate players that can and will contribute on the NBA level, but not star players. To me, I believe every NBA coach would love to have these type of point guards on their roster.

As you know, Jalen is former Knick Rick Brunson's son.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby rebound » October 11, 2017, 11:25 am

porter jr seems to have everything going for him. worst case scenario is tim thomas? best case kevin durant?
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby Don Che » October 11, 2017, 5:22 pm

KD was taller/better wingspan /better handles and slightly more athletic than Porter....Porter is a more athletic Gallinari than KD IMO which is still great but not an "all talent" great like KD
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby Red » October 11, 2017, 5:46 pm

No tanks!

Okay, let me see if I got this right.

We have a team that isn't thought to be competitive. On paper we should lose. But just losing isn't enough, we have to lose big. So that team that isn't thought to be competitive should now play worse as they set their sights on next year and beyond.

Then next year (and beyond) we take mostly the same team, thought to be unable to compete, who now has purposefully competed less, and add 1 player because we ain't tanking for free agents. So...

That one player, in usual circumstances will be a one and done 19 year old, added to a group of purposeful losers will now result in winning? Those losers (losers meaning they were okay with losing and even planned on it aka tanking) are now supposed to become winners because we added basically a high school player with enough upside to be taken high in the draft?

Hummm...

That's all KP & co. needs to succeed? A younger player with upside and then they'll get it in gear?

Is it me? :popcorn:

It sounds like the easy misconceived way out to me but hey? On the surface you see a team with Durant, Lebron, Westbrook and say hey they lost, they acquired a game changing talent and viola instant contender!

Until you realize the first 2 didn't do it with that tanking squad and Westbrook, although a great talent, hasn't at all.

So what's this mean? We're buying our time, failing on purpose, with hopes of landing a game changing talent. Just to realize the current talent isn't and probably won't be good enough to be here when that 19 year old game changer emerges.

Then we'll be asking for more replacement talent which of course some believe we need to lose to get thus that game changer will also be asked to fail in pursuit of better talent to surround him with (see: KP).

I don't know what to make of this except in sports, considering to lose before the season even starts seems a bit counterintuitive.

As many have said you go all out. You remove the manufactured belief that unless by virtue of talent on paper you're pretty much guaranteed a spot and if not losing on purpose is acceptable and replace that with expectations lto win. Then once the season is over you evaluate and figure out who the winners are from the losers.

Right now based on this tank mode, everyone is seemingly a loser. Then a player like Kyle Oak (for example) is traded to another team and all of a sudden he's a winner. Why?

Perhaps because you expected him to lose. You've fostered an environment of losing. Of all or nothing. Some fans have given up and reserved to the thinking that if we can't win we should lose. That isn't my kind of approach. So no, tanking on 10-11-17 isn't even an option.

And if you believe we already have that talent in one KP and were just waiting for another Robin to his Batman ala to Melo's Batman I don't see it.

Those talents to me in a nutshell are killers. They display this whether winning or losing. We can clearly see the potential and clearly see that in most even when their shot needs work.

The oft injured KP hasn't shown me the ability to take over a game consistently. Not just hot shooting like Melo but more. They display this no one can stop me approach and that's while 19 or 20.

With KP I just don't see that. I see a ceiling.. a limitation, an inability to add to what he already does well. Not A beast.

Sorry but to be honest KP is no beast. How do you know? Easy, wait til he plays against a beast and then look at the difference.

He's a nice compliment but we're still looking for that beast because he ain't one and we'll probably need a few. That to me means we do whatever, trade whoever to acquire that player. If that means him also then so be it but thinking we'd field a team of losers to get to a winner obviously isn't working and if it does you're talking like 5-6 years plus.

We got teams with multiple beasts and yet we don't have one. If trading KP leads to us acquiring that beast then I'd consider that. But I don't see losing on purpose a means to an end when we need to separate and identify the losers from winners to pair with such beast.

Pro-tankers: Basically you'd acquire a team full of non-beasts to lose enough to acquire that beast just to need to lose more in order to replace those losers and surround said beast with more beastly like players.

It's a vicious catch 22 cycle called Knick land.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby big_j_NY » October 11, 2017, 6:07 pm

Red, just be happy that Adam Silver is giving you an "anti-tanking rule" for the 2019 Draft.........but for the 2018 Draft, WE NEED TO TANK.

You don't have to watch the tank happen.......but you need to LET IT HAPPEN.

Bottom line, this team hasn't tanked for the draft since KP in 2015........and that has been the ONLY TIME we actually attempted to tank.

No more praying for "overpaid, money-hungry 27 yr olds" that never won anything to resurrect the franchise
#EmbraceTheTank2018

#InPorzingisWeTrust

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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby nazrmohamed » October 11, 2017, 6:57 pm

Red wrote:No tanks!

Okay, let me see if I got this right.

We have a team that isn't thought to be competitive. On paper we should lose. But just losing isn't enough, we have to lose big. So that team that isn't thought to be competitive should now play worse as they set their sights on next year and beyond.

Then next year (and beyond) we take mostly the same team, thought to be unable to compete, who now has purposefully competed less, and add 1 player because we ain't tanking for free agents. So...

That one player, in usual circumstances will be a one and done 19 year old, added to a group of purposeful losers will now result in winning? Those losers (losers meaning they were okay with losing and even planned on it aka tanking) are now supposed to become winners because we added basically a high school player with enough upside to be taken high in the draft?

Hummm...

That's all KP & co. needs to succeed? A younger player with upside and then they'll get it in gear?

Is it me? :popcorn:

It sounds like the easy misconceived way out to me but hey? On the surface you see a team with Durant, Lebron, Westbrook and say hey they lost, they acquired a game changing talent and viola instant contender!

Until you realize the first 2 didn't do it with that tanking squad and Westbrook, although a great talent, hasn't at all.

So what's this mean? We're buying our time, failing on purpose, with hopes of landing a game changing talent. Just to realize the current talent isn't and probably won't be good enough to be here when that 19 year old game changer emerges.

Then we'll be asking for more replacement talent which of course some believe we need to lose to get thus that game changer will also be asked to fail in pursuit of better talent to surround him with (see: KP).

I don't know what to make of this except in sports, considering to lose before the season even starts seems a bit counterintuitive.

As many have said you go all out. You remove the manufactured belief that unless by virtue of talent on paper you're pretty much guaranteed a spot and if not losing on purpose is acceptable and replace that with expectations lto win. Then once the season is over you evaluate and figure out who the winners are from the losers.

Right now based on this tank mode, everyone is seemingly a loser. Then a player like Kyle Oak (for example) is traded to another team and all of a sudden he's a winner. Why?

Perhaps because you expected him to lose. You've fostered an environment of losing. Of all or nothing. Some fans have given up and reserved to the thinking that if we can't win we should lose. That isn't my kind of approach. So no, tanking on 10-11-17 isn't even an option.

And if you believe we already have that talent in one KP and were just waiting for another Robin to his Batman ala to Melo's Batman I don't see it.

Those talents to me in a nutshell are killers. They display this whether winning or losing. We can clearly see the potential and clearly see that in most even when their shot needs work.

The oft injured KP hasn't shown me the ability to take over a game consistently. Not just hot shooting like Melo but more. They display this no one can stop me approach and that's while 19 or 20.

With KP I just don't see that. I see a ceiling.. a limitation, an inability to add to what he already does well. Not A beast.

Sorry but to be honest KP is no beast. How do you know? Easy, wait til he plays against a beast and then look at the difference.

He's a nice compliment but we're still looking for that beast because he ain't one and we'll probably need a few. That to me means we do whatever, trade whoever to acquire that player. If that means him also then so be it but thinking we'd field a team of losers to get to a winner obviously isn't working and if it does you're talking like 5-6 years plus.

We got teams with multiple beasts and yet we don't have one. If trading KP leads to us acquiring that beast then I'd consider that. But I don't see losing on purpose a means to an end when we need to separate and identify the losers from winners to pair with such beast.

Pro-tankers: Basically you'd acquire a team full of non-beasts to lose enough to acquire that beast just to need to lose more in order to replace those losers and surround said beast with more beastly like players.

It's a vicious catch 22 cycle called Knick land.


Red, please stop making H20s argument for him. Next he'll trade KP plus the third pick just to move up to pick number 1 when we could've easily just kept KP and drafted an excellent player at 3.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby spree#8 » October 12, 2017, 1:22 pm

Red still doesn't seem to have understood what tanking is. The players will still try to get 82 wins, it is just that our management hasn't put the talent together to win - which is a sound strategy. As a fan we can simply watch what this young team is able to do. We can be very happy if we over perform - because that would most likely mean that some of our young guys made a huge jump - and don't have to sweat if we instead are one of the five worst teams in the league, because we would be in the position to add another young exciting prospect.

People have to understand that going young and just take a "let's see what we got"-approach is way better for the long-term development than the "let's keep the team on life support"-strategy the Knicks started under Isiah Thomas. We had one good phase since 2001 with Melo, now it is time to build a new foundation the right way and we did good so far in getting Porzingis, Ntilikina, Hardaway, Hernangomez, Kanter, McDermott, Dotson (who looks good so far for a second round pick) and now hopefully Burke for the regular season roster in. I'm not sold on Baker, but he would be the ninth player 25-and-under on the team if Burke and/or Dotson make the cut.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby shakespeare » October 12, 2017, 3:29 pm

spree#8 wrote:Red still doesn't understand what tanking is.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » October 12, 2017, 4:27 pm

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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby Red » October 12, 2017, 6:31 pm

Spree you're basically saying the same thing I am which is go all out let the chips fall where they may, go from there.

Shakes does tanking mean losing intentionally to increase odds on higher draft picks or not?
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby NewlyKnicked » October 13, 2017, 3:52 am

Red wrote:Spree you're basically saying the same thing I am which is go all out let the chips fall where they may, go from there.

Shakes does tanking mean losing intentionally to increase odds on higher draft picks or not?

The only distinction between your two visions is WHO does have the intention of losing in tanking: the players or the management
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby taowave » October 13, 2017, 9:30 am

Players and coaches do not TANK.....

Management makes the decision to rebuild...

In all probability,that spells TANK
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby shakespeare » October 13, 2017, 9:32 am

Red wrote:
Shakes does tanking mean losing intentionally to increase odds on higher draft picks or not?


That is definitely the definition of tanking. The greatest tank jobs in the NBA were the result of some GM purposely decreasing his team's odds of winning via taking certain players out of the lineup or trading away productive players to increase his team's chances of landing a high lottery pick in the draft. Phil Jackson pulled a tank job which netted Porzingis.

Last year, we didn't tank.
This year, I don't believe we're tanking.

As fans, we prefer to see New York lose as many games as possible, cause we win via a high pick in the draft. I'm not sure why you've ever had a problem with that concept. Our two most promising players on the roster are the result of high lottery picks. The reason you've given doesn't really hold weight, cause once the teams picked whatever player, they became perennial winners opposed to your line of thought that says losing teams won't ever learn how to win.

For example: Cleveland tanked and signed LeBron James. Rockets tanked and drafted Olajuwon. Spurs tanked and selected Duncan.

But that's irrelevant, cause Knick fans starting threads about tanking has absolutely no effect on what the basketball team does anyway.

It's nothing more than tongue in cheek figure of speech.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby shakespeare » October 13, 2017, 9:35 am

taowave wrote:Players and coaches do not TANK.....



Fans don't tank, either. We may root for our team to lose, but we can't pull any tank jobs.
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Re: 2017-2018 Tank

Postby nazrmohamed » October 13, 2017, 10:38 am

Red wrote:Spree you're basically saying the same thing I am which is go all out let the chips fall where they may, go from there.

Shakes does tanking mean losing intentionally to increase odds on higher draft picks or not?


Pretty much we're saying the same things. Tanking is done at the gm level. Everyone we see on a nightly basis is trying to win the game......in vein of course
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