Euro Basketball 2017 thread

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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby Don Che » September 13, 2017, 9:50 am

Tao that's really not far fetched from happening.

Its best we show we are a stable organization and keep it simple.

We want Melo gone....Melo wants out but you only trade him if it benefits the Knicks salary and/or future assets. If that offer doesn't knock on the door...you keep him.

But no matter who is here or who is traded. That team needs to maximize its talent and hold everyone accountable to the team concept. If its 20 wins or 50 wins we gotta max what the roster can do. The idea of tanking will kill us. If our team sucks and we lose while playing hard(like we did the 17 win year) than so be it. That team was straight trash but much easier to watch than last year or a very talented Marbury/Jamal/curry teams leading us to 23 wins.

I would just make it clear to KP and Melo(if here) that this squad can't go anywhere unless....you buy in 100%. No great player with great success has done it without buying in.

If Willy/KP/Lee/Tim/frank play together and the right way and lead us to Doncic than so be it but in my mind......I think that squad can win some games playing together
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby taowave » September 13, 2017, 11:00 am

Your starting 5 has 4 question marks,or at least 3.5
.

Timmy,Willie,Frank and Lee at the 3..

If they sniff playoffs, Hornacek is a maestro
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby Don Che » September 13, 2017, 11:20 am

I actually don't think that would be the starting 5 but they would play a lot.

I see us if Melo is released and frank sucks this gets us 30 wins or so.

But I also project Willy to be a 15/11/3 type guy and with KP getting his we would be competitive. If Frank is legit and Timmy truly got better...38 wins....anything more than that I put on Jeff. And his roster in phx wasn't proven nor that good in a 10x better conference.

With Melo....without him buying in 38 wins...buying in 44....above that. On Jeff
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby H20Knick » September 13, 2017, 11:42 am

Don Che wrote:Tao that's really not far fetched from happening.

Its best we show we are a stable organization and keep it simple.

We want Melo gone....Melo wants out but you only trade him if it benefits the Knicks salary and/or future assets. If that offer doesn't knock on the door...you keep him.

But no matter who is here or who is traded. That team needs to maximize its talent and hold everyone accountable to the team concept. If its 20 wins or 50 wins we gotta max what the roster can do. The idea of tanking will kill us. If our team sucks and we lose while playing hard(like we did the 17 win year) than so be it. That team was straight trash but much easier to watch than last year or a very talented Marbury/Jamal/curry teams leading us to 23 wins.

I would just make it clear to KP and Melo(if here) that this squad can't go anywhere unless....you buy in 100%. No great player with great success has done it without buying in.

If Willy/KP/Lee/Tim/frank play together and the right way and lead us to Doncic than so be it but in my mind......I think that squad can win some games playing together


The team can maximize its talent and hold everyone accountable to the team concept AND tank at the same time. Tanking isn't something the players and coaching staff have to actively do. Just call out the obvious. We lost while playing hard when we won 17 games. How did play hard and only win 17 games? Because Melo only played half a season and the roster was constantly in flux. Only 6 guys played more than 50 games for us. Journeymen were fighting for contracts. Young kids were playing for roster spots.

We disagree completely as to this year's ceiling for Willy/KP/Lee/Tim/Frank completely. You think they can buy in and make the playoffs. I think they can play as hard as they want, play the right way, and they still will struggle to win 30. If Frank does a Mudiay impression or KP/Willy doesn't work well for more than a few minutes at a time because of defense, then they could end at 25. I just want a chance at that. And thta's why Melo has to go. If the offer doesn't knock on the door, he still has to go. The top 4 of this draft is too good. You've gotta put yourself into position to get one. Everyone of those 4 guys is likely to be better than everyone on our current roster besides KP. And they could all actually end up being better than KP.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby cragganmor » September 13, 2017, 12:32 pm

If investing time and effort in developing young players so we have a successful future is tanking, then so be it. I agree that we can invest and still find ways to win; don't need full frontal the way philly did.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby H20Knick » September 13, 2017, 1:02 pm

cragganmor wrote:If investing time and effort in developing young players so we have a successful future is tanking, then so be it. I agree that we can invest and still find ways to win; don't need full frontal the way philly did.


What did Philly actively do to tank though? All Hinkie did was trade good players for basically nothing. They had a strategy, and they stuck to it. Basically what Phil failed to do when he kept trying to win now despite having no realistic chance at winning now.

An excellllent read...
https://qz.com/890093/trust-the-process ... o-winners/
On Jan. 18, as the Philadelphia 76ers were about to pull off their best win in recent memory, against the Toronto Raptors, thousands of basketball fans began a strange chant.
“Trust the process!” they screamed, as star center Joel Embiid motioned for them to raise the volume. “Trust the process!”

The night was the happy culmination of a nihilistic plan. In order to become winners, the 76ers had intentionally been one of the worst teams in professional sports history. And after three years, that strategy had worked. The 76ers have perhaps the brightest future of any team in the NBA.

The architect of that master plan was 76ers general manager Sam Hinkie. But nine months before that euphoric night, Hinkie had been forced out of his job.

An iconoclast who has been both vilified and canonized, Hinkie’s vindication came too late to save his job, but it has cemented his status as a strategic genius in sports.

“He did the kind of stuff people talk about late at night after three beers, because theoretically it just might work, but no one actually does,” according to a November Sports Illustrated profile. “Then he set fire to the lifeboats.”
The 76ers hired Sam Hinkie in May 2013. The team’s owners, led by private equity investors, chose him for his analytics acumen. They figured Hinkie, a Stanford MBA, could Moneyball the 76ers to greatness. When Hinkie interviewed for the job, he made it clear to the owners that he thought they were “a long way away” from winning big. The cupboard was bare of talent, and if they wanted to win a championship in the long term, their best way forward would involve a lot of losing in the short term.

Here’s his thinking: Historically, in the National Basketball Association (NBA), the teams that win championships rely on star players such as Michael Jordan and Lebron James. Hinkie believed the surest way for the 76ers to get a star of that caliber was to have a high pick in the amateur draft (the annual process through which newly eligible players are selected by the NBA’s 32 teams). The highest draft picks are awarded to the worst teams, and if the 76ers were bad enough for long enough, he argued, they would eventually get a great player. It would take patience though. Hinkie warned his bosses, the team, and its fans that the short term would be painful, and it most certainly was. Almost immediately upon Hinkie’s hiring, the team began “tanking”—the sports term for losing on purpose. Hinkie traded the team’s best players and made no attempts to acquire players that would make it better.


Over the next three years, the 76ers were horrible. They lost more games than any other team, and broke the NBA’s record for consecutive games lost. It all culminated in the third season when the team won only 10 of 82 games, making it the second worst NBA team of all time. One prominent sports writer called the team an “abomination,” and another an “atrocity“. Observers called for the NBA to intervene and have Hinkie replaced with a manager who wouldn’t tank. The team’s attendance and tv ratings were among the lowest in the league.


But even at the worst depths of history-making failure, many of the team’s hardcore fans were steadfast in their support of Hinkie. Unlike his predecessors, Hinkie offered a concrete plan based on quantitative analysis. The team was an embarrassment on the court, but they were getting talented young players with high draft picks who might some day become stars.


[Before Hinkie, the 76ers] just had mediocre teams playing mediocre basketball, being incredible boring… and having no plan,” said Michael Levin, a lifelong 76ers fan and host of the popular 76ers podcast The Rights to Ricky Sanchez. Levin was immediately enamored of Hinkie, he told Quartz. He was happy that the team was finally “thinking long-term at expense of any short-terms gains.”

Levin and his podcast cohost Spike Eskin popularized the motto that would become synonymous with Hinkie’s long-game plan: “Trust the process.” “After a game, one of the 76ers players said that management had told him to just work hard and trust the process,” explained Levin. “We took that up as the rallying cry.”

Unfortunately for Hinkie and his fans, the owners were not so resolute. Under pressure from the owners of other NBA teams, who felt that the 76ers terrible play was bad for the league’s bottom line, the team hired a veteran general manager to oversee Hinkie in December 2015—midway through the third season. Although he wasn’t fired, Hinkie was marginalized. (Quartz has reached out to Sam Hinkie and the Philadelphia 76ers for comment and will update this story with any response.)
In April 2016, Hinkie stepped down. “Given all the changes to our organization, I no longer have the confidence that I can make good decisions on behalf of investors in the Sixers….” Hinkie wrote in his 13-page resignation letter to the 76ers board. The resignation letter served as a defense of his decision-making, as well as a kind of philosophical treatise that includes references to Elon Musk, cognitive science, the physicist James Clerk Maxwell, and Jeff Bezos’s 10,000 year clock. The letter cemented Hinkie’s reputation as a mad genius or a fool—all depending on your point of view.

This month, it finally became clear that Hinkie was right all along. The 76ers have won more than half of their games over the last month. The team’s talented young players are blossoming, and it is in a strong position to acquire more excellent players going forward.

Most emblematic of Hinkie’s success is the emerging stardom of the 76ers’ agile giant Joel Embiid. Hinkie drafted the 7-foot Cameroonian in 2014 even though he had a broken bone in his foot that would not allow him to play for six months. Embiid was a player of immense talent, and because the 76ers were not worried about winning in the short term, the injury did not deter Hinkie from drafting him. Only 22 years old, Embiid already looks like he is likely to become one of the best players in the NBA, if he isn’t already. Embiid’s basketball skills are nearly matched by his devilish wit. A fan favorite who had a close relationship with Hinkie, Embiid nicknamed himself “The Process.” A prolific social media poster, Embiid often cheekily nods to Hinkie, and popularized the meme “Hinkie died for our sins” (now available in t-shirt form, too).

Embiid even used the victory of US President Donald Trump as a chance to reference Hinkie’s plan. “Well America is tanking!!! All we can do is Trust The Process…” Embiid tweeted.

Embiid is not the only Philadelphian who won’t let the 76ers move on from Hinkie. Since he resigned, Hinkie’s fans put up a giant billboard of him along a busy stretch of highway, and fans regularly wear shirts with Hinkie’s name on the back. The “cult of Sam Hinkie” is thriving. As for Hinkie himself, he seems less hung up on the past. “It’s clear now that I won’t see the harvest of the seeds we planted.” Hinkie wrote in his resignation letter. “That’s OK. Life’s like that.”
Now living in Palo Alto, California Hinkie is preparing himself for an NBA comeback. Hinkie told Sports Illustrated that he sometimes jokingly tells Silicon Valley types that he is “like a founder that got pushed out for professional management.”
Sam Hinkie helped the 76ers take the hard and necessary step of sacrificing short-term gratification for long-term success, and then became the fall guy when the team ran out of patience. The decision to fire Hinkie will loom over the 76ers. They should have trusted the process.


To me, Philly accepted reality and did what they had to go to give their franchise a chance to win a title down the road. I don't know why knicks fans won't accept this, but it really is what everyone says about the fanbase. They're impatient. They're unwilling to lose. They want results now. That's not how the NBA works. Until lottery reform happens, thats not how you get to a title. The Spurs didn't do it that way. The Cavs didn't do it that way. Steph Curry wasn't the 1st pick, but he still went to a team that only won 29 games. The Knicks could've had him but the fans wanted to win more games. We ended up with Jordan Hill instead.

This thread is talking about an 18 year old who is playing like one of, if not the best player on the best team in europe. You put your hopes in a guy who was a marginal player on an individual team from a country that didn't win a tournament game. This is the talent gap we're talking about between the teams that compete for championships and the teams that "make the playoffs". You can get these elite players, but you won't do what's necessary to get them because you get emotionally attached to the careers of guys who aren't going to bring you a championship. I'm sorry, but if Willy and THJ and Frank pick up bad habits because the team isn't competitive and we end up with MPJ or Luka Doncic, then so be it. Cut them, replace them, and move on.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby Don Che » September 13, 2017, 5:46 pm

If that's the plan then we should release Melo which I'm not crazy about but can totally see why.

Philly took that whole roster and got rid of it....we just gotta do it with 1 and philly didn't do it with a 20 million a year type guy. Iggy was the biggest name they shipped oh and none of those players had a trade clause

So its just a different situation. And I also disagreed with their drafting POV also. Maybe it paid off with their big 3.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby taowave » September 13, 2017, 7:26 pm

Don,there is a collateral damage of keeping Melo on board. Most think the pressure is on Melo,but we have downside in this as well.

im not so sure a stud FA is going to land here,so a high pick is probably a better asset..

I think Melo is worth 10 extra wins in the book..
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby cragganmor » September 13, 2017, 8:33 pm

Melo might be worth 10 wins, but would you rather be a 37 win team or a 27 win team? He definitely adds wins, but usually can't lift us over .500

We can land a bonafide star fa, but we need to establish a foundation and open up a role to be the alpha. Melo is not deferring to anyone, not ready to be a sidekick
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby gradyandrew » September 13, 2017, 10:27 pm

What position is KP playing at? 4 or 5?
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby taowave » September 14, 2017, 7:07 am

No question a high draft pick,but Only because I believe NY is anything but a preferred FA destination at the current time..




cragganmor wrote:Melo might be worth 10 wins, but would you rather be a 37 win team or a 27 win team? He definitely adds wins, but usually can't lift us over .500

We can land a bonafide star fa, but we need to establish a foundation and open up a role to be the alpha. Melo is not deferring to anyone, not ready to be a sidekick
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby Don Che » September 14, 2017, 9:07 am

Draft is def the way to go.... we won't attract a FA worth having until we build a playoff team on our own.

If our young 4 make the playoffs with or without Melo we will get a big fish once we have the $$
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 1:34 pm

Calling it before the game: Spain will defeat Slovenia.
#knickstape
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 1:40 pm

#knickstape
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » September 14, 2017, 1:42 pm

spree#8 wrote:Calling it before the game: Spain will defeat Slovenia.

Bold call
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 1:46 pm

spree#8 wrote:Calling it before the game: Spain will defeat Slovenia.

ISIAH_THOMAS wrote:Bold call


Not really, I know. But H20 named Doncic "the best player on the best team" (he is reaching there; brightest talent in Europe fits instead), so I thought I would make clear that Spain is the clear cut favorite here.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 1:52 pm

Dragic with the circus shot after a dumb foul by Sastre. Slovenia up by six after the first ten. Doncic with some great passes early. Rubio with a good percentage from midrange, Pau Gasol with some nice cuts/tip-ins. Marc Gasol quiet so far, but Germany was able to keep up with Spain for three quarters in the quarter final and then Marc Gasol took over...

I expect Slovenia to stay longer in the game than Germany, but Spain's depth to be the difference in the end. P. Gasol, M. Gasol, Navarro, Rubio, Rodriguez and both Hernangomezes to name a few.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 2:05 pm

Fantastic scene under Slovenia's basket: P. Gasol misses from the left, Willy's tip-in from the right misses, Gasol's tip-in try from the left misses, Willy gets another off-reb and finishes. All while Gasol/Hernangomez are surrounded by three Slovenians and Dragic being close as a fourth watching. Too much physicality...
#knickstape
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 2:18 pm

Slovenia up by 4 at the half. Three-point-percentage the difference. Doncic with two more pretty assists and two of Slovenia's 10 threes (10 of 15 compared to Spain's 3/12). Dragic and Doncic both made a lucky one with backboard.
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Re: Euro Basketball 2017 thread

Postby spree#8 » September 14, 2017, 2:34 pm

Slovenia looking sharp at the start of the second half, while Spain's starting five looks old. Marc Gasol with three fouls in trouble. 10 point lead for Slovenia. Rodriguez and the younger guys might have to come in for the rescue.
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